Why ' cis ' ? why even bother with it

Pretty much yes to everything you say. But would suggest that without reference points, one is always going to struggle to find the you, in you!

There are 2 kinds of support; emotional and practical, the problem is, the first appears to trump the second and my view is that it suits ideology debate rather than supporting the person. Both support mechanisms has a role to play.

A significant part of the confusion and anxiety is not caused by lack of acceptance. It's caused by the central nervous system at odds with it's own biology, The person's mind and body fighting for a stronghold, it's what human's do, fight or flight when faced with trauma.

The science doesn't actually help very much when the individual is in this fight, it's not visible. The mind however has all of the cards, and it translates visual images (one looking in the mirror) as an enemy of itself. The idea that if one is smothered in love and acceptance doesn't help either, it just accelerates the confusion when essentially, after the euphoria of mass love and political acceptance has died down, the person still feels at war with oneself.

So with a lobby of people chanting for tolerance and acceptance as the magic key to salvation, and a person still feeling their world is crumbling, in their minds they have nowhere else to turn because the big fix didn't work.

Emotional and scientific support needs to work together to help people overcome the dreadful personal battles they face, absenting one over the other will not provide what is needed.

Counselling is certainly important both fore and aft of transition, but it is now loaded to shepherd the person through the various phases, rather than assess whether a person has other deeper issues. Psychotherapy is needed not counselling, to help unlock the demons and provide the person with the tools they need to live a fulfilling life.

Activists who think that using loud words and shutting down down balanced discourse by bringing out the hater/fascist card and lobbying friendly politicians to help drive through their agendas, is only hurting one group of people... and it isn't me.

I care that we are losing people to suicide at a rate far higher than any national average and against a growing culture of political ideology as the so called answer to the trans community struggles, this figure is getting worse. But as most ideologies will tell you, it's always someone else fault.

For you personally, i will say this; the answer to your battle is not whether you are a man or woman, it's whether you can find the inner peace you need to make the best choices for you. You will need practical and emotional support, not legal changes to linguistics. Also, hold on to the notion that more people care about you than you could imagine and they don't always manifest in the obvious places.

Good luck my friend, the world needs people alive and well.

 

I cheerfully use the term cismale to describe myself.

 

Damn... Godwin's law sure kicked in quickly here...

 

Always does in these types of discussions.

 

What a useless dicussion.

Perhaps the problem isn't that which we don't know, but instead that which we do. Everyone has implicit bias.

I suppose the coining of 'cis' was mostly a reaction to the spectrum of gender identity being indentified. But in some ways it is no better than "all lives matter" which was also reactionary. And in creating a reaction, we have stolen from a very very small part of society a feeling of acceptance and/or security. Why should any of "them" be able to label themselves differently from our personal perameters?? Because they are different. We are all different, and yet the same. That needs zero science for verification...

 

A little presumptuous, but in the free world, you get to have an opinion in the hope you are not branded a fascist. To me, 'cis' supports an agenda that I find dangerous.

 

While I do understand your frustration with the indoctrinated snowflakes, I'm not sure your way of looking at the mixture of scientific facts and cultural chaos that is the whole cis/trans thing is a good one. I feel you're being pushed, but I'm not sure you're pushing back in the best possible direction, so to speak.

The cis/trans pair of words has been widely used long before they rose to popularity due to gender issues. See the 1,2-Dichloroethene wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Dichloroethene. IMO there's nothing wrong about using the term cis-male to specify that someone is more or less the baseline XY male-identified male. Sure, I usually wouldn't use the term in an everyday conversation, but I'm okay with it being used when it actually conveys information.

Your posts feel like you're letting your emotions cloud your thinking and your clarity, and I'm not sure that's something you wish happening when you're trying to show you're one of the sensible ones.

 

A well known term in the chemistry world. But to then use it to label a gender to fit the narrative of societal ideology is not welcome. As a male, I identify as a male. It's my choice and I take exception to being relabelled to fit other agendas. The thinking around this centres on the belief that males will not bitch about it too much and if they do, the ideologues have an arsenal other verbiage they can through at high volume to drown out any irritating protests.

But to your other point and its use to convey information, I fail to see how relabelling a sex conveys anything useful.

 

If we were to talk about sensible debates, I don't the term cis-male as a re-labeling. I see it as a more specific term that can be used to specify baseline XY males, e.g. in cases where there are important differences between cis-males and trans-males. Say when talking about prostatic cancer or osteoporosis, or experience growing up.

Call me a liberal, but I do think FtM transexuals deserve the courtesy of being called men. And although male-appearing intersex people are say 0.1% of the population, that's like 7 million people wordlwide, and I'd guess they too would like to call themselves male. So I would use the term male if details such as who has what chromosomes are irrelevant, and the term cis-male if I wished to convey more detailed information.

I fully understand your frustration with the way the term is being abused by certain demographics. It is just that I live in a country far less infected with this craziness, so I'm a little more sensitive to sensible people no longer being willing to remain entirely precise and courteous, even though I know it's been used against them so many times it is no wonder they're pushing back so hard they sometimes forget to remain liberal in the classical sense of the word.

 

Yes, I do agree too many people are too hung up on labels, or at least pretend to be.

I guess we would both agree that it would be better to prevent the irrational minority from damaging everyday language, not to mention the knock-on effects.

However, I do feel there is a room for improvement, in the sense that modern science knows a lot more about sex and gender than we knew 100+ years ago, so to me it does make sense to use modernised facts-based language that in some cases offers greater precision and clarity. Sure, disregarding someone's input because he's a cis-male is wrong. But a study describing the results of comparing say divorce rates of cis-men and trans-men is fine by me.

Do we need to continue this debate?

 

I really can't see why anybody should object to the prefix cis-

I have many wmen friends. Some are cis-, some are trans-

Some have a vagina, some have a cock. I've even met one with both.

But they are all women, good, bad and indifferent. None are normal or ordinary.

It is no accident that the transphobes get hung up on anatomy.

To me it doesn't matter, if I meet a woman and hit it off and want to make love we will.

In whatever way we choose and the details are nopbody else's business.

The idea that a transwoman cannot say, "I am a woman" is ridiculous.

 

Many have alwatys died at their own hands or those of others, unrecorded as being trans.
Please rewite and explain this

Many people who would have preferred to transition to what they see as their true gender, but haven't yet done so, commit suicide because of the complications it brings to their lives; or are killed e.g. by family or lovers because of prejudice - but a lot of those deaths are not recorded as being those of transfolk.

From the conflicts of trying to pretend to be cishet in a society that sees that as the only 'normal' orientation.
What about the conflicts.. what happened... ??

There is enormous pressure on all of us to conform, 'to be a man', 'be a woman', fit the conventional mould. If you can't or won't fit that pattern, because you are trans, the realisation that you are trans doesn't come fully formed, especially when information about what being trans means is hard to come by, or prejudice is rife. Such people wonder if they are gay. They often over-compensate, go overboard doing 'manly' things, which is perhaps why so many ex-warriors later transition.But it is a very difficult process of gaining self-knowledge to understand why you seem different.

The ability to transition has led to far better mental outcomes, as proven statistically.
I don't think anyone is arguing with that.. were it not thought to be the case the NHS would probably not fund it

I know many transwomen who have transitioned fully.
MANY.... define many.. there are less than 1% in the US

I really have no idea whether it is 0.5% or 2%. Bu even 0.1% of tens of millions is still many people! I have known maybe a couple of hundred who've gone all the way, many more on-op, or on the way.

Some are now married and settled with a husband, or a wife, a girlfriend or boyfriend, cis or trans.
and? ...

Some are not so established.
that can be applied to everyone?

But they are all far happier now than they were, despite the prejudice, the slights, the knockbacks from the haters.
All... a sweeping statement

Yes, but I can say all those I have known are far happier, as I don't know any who aren't.

Male privilege is a thing, like white privilege, money privilege, middle-class privilege.
Are they really or are they just percieved by others?

As the modern intersectional feminists have established and demonstrated conclusively.
They demonstrate for their purposes..

Luckily I have the full set, and the insight to recognise it for what it is, not take it for granted.
Of what ?

Any transman who's gained male privilege and every transwoman who's lost it will confirm it too!
Any ?..

Yes, all the transmen I have met, which is possibly ony 20 or so find male privilege is a real thing and love it.

And all the transwomen I have met, and that would be hundreds find that people treat them different, particularly the transphobes of course, but even those who accept them as women. Folk will interrupt them more, give less weight to their opinions: that is the way privilege works.

I hate the hatred, the prejudiuce, the lies that the fascisti project, the sociopathic projection.
Most people do not particularly like fascists except maybe fascists .. but don't try and blame them for everything just because its trendy and easy to do so

I will continue to take the view that 'normal women' includes lesbian, bi, trans-women, white women, women of colour, disabled women, etc. they are all within the range of 'normal'. I will even include women who lock up men's cocks!

Obviously you do not understand the word 'normal' or the phrase 'not unusual'

I believe I fully understand both words. I can't see what your problem is, or are you just trolling?

I will continue to take the view that 'normal men' includes gay, bi, trans-men, white women, women of colour, disabled women, etc. they are all within the range of 'normal'. I will even include men interested i having their cock locked-up (if they have one)!
sigh....

I will continue to use the terms cis-man, ciswoman, when the distinction clarifies what I mean

 

"Cis" is a term that still confuses many people and seems to be more of a political statement than anything else. I only hear it being used in a derogatory way in some sort. Language is not substitution for respect/dignity and a lack thereof. People just need to label less and understand more.

 

I will continue to use the prefix cis- in this context, as there is no other valid word to replace it.

If you are offended by that, get a grip!

Just imagine how much worse it would be having to endure the sneers, jeers, misgendering, stares, and much worse that many transwomen and some transmen have to endure, the transphobic propaganda and erasure.

 

I think that the cis- prefix came about because society overall wants male / female for gender or "sex", and many do not want trans people using their assumed gender, many feel that it is dishonest. So, for example, if trans-women need to be labeled as such, some political elements in response want chromosomal gendered people to have a prefix too.

Personally, I think it is going too far, but I can understand the point. It is a political tit-for-tat.

I have no problem with trans-persons using their assumed gender. I assume that eventually society will come to a solution to his issue, but we are not there yet.

 

I imagine many on here have never met a transwomen or transman, they judge purely and simply on the basis of the transphobic rants in the extreme right media, and have never knowingly met one.

Since Miss Prim and I established The Muir Academy for naughty adult boys, girls and special girls, back in 1987, their company has become normal to me, they make up a high proportion of the women I know.

They are women, mostly much the same as any other women, with the same huge variation in looks, background, outlook, experience. By all means judge them as individuals; but resist prejudice.

If you are not a trans, intersex, etc. person, then you are a cis person. A simple technical term for which no other word can be used. If unhappy about me, or anybody else using that word, get a grip!

Transfolk are generally wonderful people, though like any group, some are boring, bad or downright evil.

If you lump them all together, assuming they are a homogenous group all alike, you are transphobic.

Just as a racist presumes there is a real difference between 'white' people and 'people of colour'.

Research suggests most homophobes are repressed bi, gay or lebian folk.

In the ame way most agressively transphobic folk have repressed desires to cross-dress.

There is a simple cure, try dressing as one of the other gender and see how it feels.

It helps, if you're a man, to have a woman help you dress, do your make-up, etc.