Why ' cis ' ? why even bother with it

Discussion in 'Off topic discussions' started by filltee, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. filltee
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    filltee Junior Member

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    Why ' cis ' ? why even bother with it

    Cisgender
    has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which is the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of".

    I am not a Latin speaker sure I use words from many other languages that have been adopted by my own as it developed and continues to do so.

    But we seem by adopting cis to be ignoring even denying the perfectly good and acurate word normal. That is of course if for some reason from the words male or female we can for some bizarre reason no longer infer..born that way. Its as though the word Normal'has been by some banned from use in reference to gender and is even on its way to becoming a dirty word

    Some people it seems appear to make it their life's work to be offended by words being used by others in their proper context.

    Lets be objective..realistic .. honest with ourselves
    Normal is derived from Norm.... the usual, typical, or expected state or condition.

    The average person ( thats mean or median) has less than 2 arms but the modal average or Norm is to have exactly 2 arms.. Who'd argue with that?

    Being born and being either Male or Female is the Norm or is normal... there is nothing to argue about there

    cis as far as I'm concerned will always sound like its short for sister... and will continue to be be a mispelling of the same when written.

    cis Its not a word I will be adopting and nor would I encourage anyone else to use it. Even though the people that embrace the term would label my gender as cis male if they knew me.. I reject the word I'm male and from that word the world can contiue to infer that means was I born one
     
  2. Guy
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    /QUOTE]

    Because to me a transwoman is a normal woman. too. End of.
     
  3. Guy
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    Because a transwoman is a woman too to me. If I were to say "a norrmal woman" that would include transwomen.

    So I make the point explicitly. If you are so privileged in your life to find that usage offensive, get a grip!

    I will presume you are one of the fascisti who would erase transwomen from existence, whatever you say.
     
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  4. Guy
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    Of course that applies to cismale folk too, the many intersex folk, etc.!

    There have always been transwomen, transmen, intersex people, in the human race.

    That is true too amongst all mammals, birds, fish, amphibians, reptiles, etc.

    It happens, it is normal.

    Such people should have the same rights to live their life in privacy, in the way they choose.

    Anybody who asserts otherwise is clearly a bully, probably a bigot.

    Not somebody with whom I would want to associate.

    I am cis-, male-, heterosexual I am neither proud or ashamed of that.

    It just happens to be an accurate statement of my current gender and sexuality, for now,
     
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  5. henry58
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    henry58 Long term member

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    When was it possible for trans women to become pregnant? Never!
    Science and societal thinking appear to be at war. Ideology would really like to absent science from the debate, citing irrelevance. Should a person with an X Y chromosome be classed as a woman if that person decides to identify as such? To make the field appear more fair and the hunger for pronoun discrimination, cis was born to ensure the fluidity of gender politics.

    Look I know some pretty great people who for reasons of their own, want to be something else. I just think fighting science dilutes the argument.

    Plus I have a real issue with the suicide rates for transforming; circa 40% pre and post transition. Against a national average of about 2% (of which the majority are males), something is not right with the way our cultures are evolving.
     
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  6. nathalia
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    We use the term cis- because saying normal would imply that transmen and transwomen are abnormal.
    And considering transgenders as abnormal is derogatory to those people who just try to find some happiness in their life.

    The concept of normality is just weird... What does it mean "being normal"? Yes one may have one characteristic that significantly deviates from the human population average but does that make them abnormal? Would you consider someone over 6' 6'' as abnormal? Because there might be more transgenders in the world than there are people over 6' 6''...
     
  7. Guy
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    An intersex woman I know thought she was an ordinay cishet man for nearly 50 years.

    After a series of health problems she discovered she is, and always has been, actually intersex, XYY.

    The tiny cock she was embarrassed about for more than 40 years was an over-developed clitoris.

    When she has The Op. they discovered that she had been sewn up at birth.

    Inside she had once had had a perfectly functional vagina, cervix, womb, etc. inside.

    Too late to bear a child, it was her going into menopause that probably triggered the health problems.

    Now she has breasts, a functional vagina, lives as a woman 24/7, thoroughly enjoys PIV sex.

    Had her condition been known thirdty years early, she would probably have been a grandmother by now.

    But she didn't because of the kind of arrogant, fascist prejudice you are exhibiting.

    The doctor sewed her up at birth, because gender bullies like you like to pretend these things don't exist.

    My friend now has to contend on an hourly, daily basis from the kind of nasty prejudice that drips out of whatever you write.

    I have had the privilege, over decades of knowing many hundreds, thousands of women over the past 40 years, both trans- and cis-, and all the many variations in between.

    In the biblical sense too, of course, both trans- in its infinite variety and cis- in its amazing range too.

    I can say categorically, with no hesitation at all, that transwomen are women; usually more typically feminine than most ciswomen, because of the need to fit in as women.

    It seemsotherwise to the "I'm normal" world because almost all transmen, and most transwomen blend into the general population as men and women. The only ones you notice are those who can't.

    I have known many transwomen before the operation, and sadly many died by their own hand because of the hurdles put in the way of their transitions by narrow-minded bigotry as you show.

    I have seen the joy in their eyes, in their lives, when science, hormones and surery gives them bodies they feel happy and proud to live in.

    I have seen the bullying, the looks,m the snide remarks, the denial of jobs, housing, charity, opportunity thart they have to face from bigots like you.

    It is horrible, terrible, and every bit as bad as the discrimination that people of colour have to face.

    And as a result of that maltreatment, some do take their own lives in despair.

    They are casualties of the prejudice you show. Grow up; being trans is normal. They need our support.
     
  8. Guy
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    Or to put it another way, only a few men are interested in chastity. So one being so interested is abnormal about something sexual, i.e, is a pervert .... Now obviously I don't think that way, and not just because under certain circumstances I enjoy being a keyholder!

    But many folk would. Statistically they would also likely to be racist, misogynist, ablist and generally nasty people who rejoice when those not of their tribe are raped, beaten, murdered or driven to suicide. That's what being a fascist is.

    But I will defend your right to have an interest in chastity, just as I'd defend the tright of a transwoman to live as a woman, a transman to live as a man, a gay or bi man to openly have lovers of the same gender, the rights of people of colour, a christian to gop to church, a muslim to a mosque, a jew to a synagogue, etc.

    Despite being a cishet, atheist, white man.

    That is what being a tolerant person entails.
     
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  9. henry58
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    henry58 Long term member

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    No, trans women are not women, they are trans. And using a very small minority of intersex people to support an ideology actually pisses them off.
     
  10. henry58
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    Hmm ‘one tolerates’! As in; it annoys one but will put up with it
     
  11. Guy
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    Transwomen are people, they are women.

    Those who hate on transwomen are fascists; Hitler's fascists didn't just murder jews, they sent many disabled people, people of colour, transfolk, gay folk, socialists, communists, trades unionists to their deaths.

    Haters will hate. Bigots will judge despite the parable The Mote and the Beam
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_and_the_Beam

    First they came for The socialists:
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/cont...niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

    I will speak, and if I can act, for any minority persecuted by the majority.

    Those who would deny the humanity of those minorities, I will tell you to your face, you are a fascist.
     
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  12. Guy
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    I used the example of the intersex woman because she has to face the same hatred.

    The same kind of discrimination, each and every day as almost every 'out' transwoman faces.

    That is the ugly result of your irrational, ugly and fascist prejudices.
     
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  13. MissyB
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    Science does support that X and y determine sex. Science also supports the idea of gender fluidity, not necessarily tied to sex. So don't use only part of science to justify your position. When in fact, science finds no issue with the whole concept. Now society acceptance of those facts is an issue and leads in large part to the suicide issues associated with all of LGBT individuals. Working on acceptance will do a lot for that problem.
     
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  14. henry58
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    No, science does not support gender fluidity. Science affects the actions to reshape the male/female physically to their new form, but the biological make up cannot be fluid. And the suicide rate is not attributed to the LGBT community, that is just a diluted argument to try and justify the ideology that gender is fluid. The rate is attributed to the Trans community (the 'T' in LGBT). It's just a massive convienience to conflate the whole LGBTQ++++++ community, to drive the ideology through.

    Now what I have not said, is that people do not have a right to choose how they live their lives. That is something i respect totally, it's a main part of the reason that millions of men and women died so that others could live free and denounce their respective countries as rubbish and denounce pride in ones country and flag as some form of heresy, that's what that freedom allows.

    Societal ideology not science has taken it upon itself to dissect gender and sex to meet a growing ideology in the vain hope that those who suffer from body dysmorphia will be able to live normal happy flourishing lives. The ideal so to speak. But the truth is far more sinister, a growing number of young people in total confusion and without the tools and resilience to handle the stress. And a loud lobby that uses its activists to pronounce what is normal and denounce any who may have an option to the contrary.

    If I walked into a doctors surgery tomorrow and declared the penis I was born with is wrong and not part of me, no doubt the liberal system will kick in and help shepherd me to eventual transition. If I walk into the doctors surgery tomorrow and declared my right leg is alien to my body and should be removed, well I'm sure mental health would want a few words.

    There is a reason that 40% of post op trans take their own lives, it is not down to society rejecting them, it's down to not having the right support system before transition.
     
  15. henry58
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    Yeah I know you would because that's all you have. No reasonable argument, so straight to the hater thing with a touch of fascism. Designed of course to rally the masses to stamp out discourse. Which is what fascists do. Oh! that's you! Hate, so a person has a contrary view and it's not the same as yours, so they must hate.

    So apart from using the usual liberal socialist (who murdered 100 million people) diatribe BS, what have you done to protect the vulnerable from the boogymen? I know I have, but not sure you have.
    Words in the safety of the countries that give you freedom is one thing, giving one's life in the shit holes of the world is something else.
     
  16. Guy
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    Pure victim-blaming to justify your prejudice!

    Trans (and other LGB folk) disproportionately take their own lives because of the poisonous hate from haters. The denial of love and acceptance from their family, friends, difficulties with housing, work, healthcare, created by the haters. They are murdered (particularly those of colour) at a far higher rate because they are not considered to be fully human or women by the haters. Haters hate on LGBT people because they are bullies.

    If you began to realise how life-changing it is to make that decision to transition, to give up male privilege, face down the haters and the prejudice for the rest of your life, you could never be so flip.

    Just let them live their lives in peace, that is all they ask and it is an entirely reasonable request.
     
  17. henry58
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    Yeah, you lost me at male privilege. Help because you want to, not because it appeases your inner guilt. The only hate i feel right now are the words coming off your keyboard. Whether you like it or not, your sentiment is a big part of their problem. At the very point body dysmorphia was de-categorised as a mental health issue, funding and resources was cut and moved to higher priorities.

    Great, you got acceptance, but the kids just keep killing themselves. The only saving grace, 60% have the mental resilience to push through. If you just take your finger out of your ass and actually read what i have written, your narrow minded viewpoint may actually see something further from your nose. Have you actually considered that a big part of the problem is that the mental anguish that they go through, struggling with their demons, are still there post op? Less cuddling and tenderness and more real practical help may actually save lives, but of course, that doesn't sell the ideology!
     
  18. Guy
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    Transwomen and men have struggled with their identities through the ages.

    Many have alwatys died at their own hands or those of others, unrecorded as being trans.

    From the conflicts of trying to pretend to be cishet in a society that sees that as the only 'normal' orientation.

    The ability to transition has led to far better mental outcomes, as proven statistically.

    I know many transwomen who have transitioned fully.

    Some are now married and settled with a husband, or a wife, a girlfriend or boyfriend, cis or trans.

    Some are not so established.

    But they are all far happier now than they were, despite the prejudice, the slights, the knockbacks from the haters.

    Male privilege is a thing, like white privilege, money privilege, middle-class privilege.

    As the modern intersectional feminists have established and demonstrated conclusively.

    Luckily I have the full set, and the insight to recognise it for what it is, not take it for granted.

    Any transman who's gained male privilege and every transwoman who's lost it will confirm it too!

    I hate the hatred, the prejudiuce, the lies that the fascisti project, the sociopathic projection.

    I will continue to take the view that 'normal women' includes lesbian, bi, trans-women, white women, women of colour, disabled women, etc. they are all within the range of 'normal'. I will even include women who lock up men's cocks!

    I will continue to take the view that 'normal men' includes gay, bi, trans-men, white women, women of colour, disabled women, etc. they are all within the range of 'normal'. I will even include men interested i having their cock locked-up (if they have one)!

    I will continue to use the terms cis-man, ciswoman, when the distinction clarifies what I mean
     
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  19. L-u-c-y
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    As far as I can see, no one on this thread has any trans hatred. I think no one would join this site if they felt that way.
     
  20. Ms. Joanne
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    Since I am Transgender let me explain this so people can try to understand.

    To be born Transgender is to know you are to a small or very large extent uncomfortable with your assigned gender. So you certainly do not in any way feel "normal". To the point when it may even cause you such absolute distress and confusion that you simply cannot function or make you want to do something foolish like take your own life because you feel so alone.

    To look in a mirror and have a mental disconnect because you don’t even recognise the face staring back at you. When you feel like everyone in the world is against you and that they will hate, despise and cause you physical harm. To be so desperately afraid and cry yourself to sleep at night because you know you simply cannot go out and be the way you feel you are. When you pray at night and ask for a higher power to make you just like everyone else because you’re so desperate to have a normal life.

    To move beyond that takes courage and strength. And that is what it means to be Transgender.

    For a Transgender person respect, understanding and support from other people is so important so we can feel just as “normal” as everyone else. Also the correct pronouns are just as important. I think and feel I am female so I appreciate people using “her” and “she”. That is the way I see myself and the only time I am truly happy is when I present as what I feel is my true gender... female!

    Most people I have met here are very open-minded but not everyone understands so I hope my comment has helped clarify.
     
  21. L-u-c-y
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    Well said : )

    But what if I don't want to be called a cis woman? Will people respect that?
     
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  22. Ms. Joanne
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    Thanks Lucy. I am sure people will certainly respect whatever you tell them to respect. And cis Lucy doesn't really work, neither does cis Mistress. It's an added complication for your subs when Mistress or Mistress Lucy is so much simpler. :)
     
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  23. L-u-c-y
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    Just Lucy will do :)
     
  24. henry58
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    I'll dispense with the science, apparently those who believe in science are intolerant haters. If I told you I was born with the wrong leg and every time I looked at it, distress and anxiety and confusion consumed me, what would your advice be? Yes, it's difficult isn't it? To comprehend that something in my mind has made me think this way. Or if I told you, the voices in my head were telling me to cut off my hand, because it's the wrong one, what would you advise?

    My point is this; I don't have to believe in your views to be compassionate, like many millions of others. We may not share your version of gender, but it does not mean the millions of people seek to harm you. My concern, the support trans need to ensure they can remain safe pre and/or post op is not there and now made worse because liberal law makers have played to the trans activists, but the net affect, is that essential healthcare has been reduced further. Forcing the masses to believe in something either by lobby or force, will not make the trans world a better place. Alienating discourse is a bad route. I have my beliefs and science is at it's basis. I abhor forced usage of pronouns, it just increases animosity. I do respect peoples right to choose what they do with their bodies and their right to free speech. But ideology is evil and the death rate for ideology is way too high for me to support the concept.

    And every time someone thinks it's ok to call me a fascist, join me in the places where atrocities to people considered 'not normal' are truly persecuted. Or be useful and thank those who deliver the very freedoms that allow free speech.
     
  25. Cosmo17498
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    #25 Cosmo17498, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Been reading this thread with some interest and I have some comments and questions.
    First of all, hating trans people makes you transphobic, not fascist. Fascism is not inherently transphobic. Nazis and neo-nazis are transphobic fascists, but I don't see evidence of anyone here being one.
    Secondly, I'm intrigued by the mention of science. Without seeing sources from either side, I can't comment on which argument is more accurate.
    Thirdly, @henry58, I'm confused by what you are saying. Maybe it's because I'm sick and my brain is all foggy. Are you suggesting that trans people need counselling before and after they take hormones or get surgery? Because I'm all for that. How one feels is important, but the root of those feelings needs to be addressed. They may not actually be trans and have an actual mental disorder causing the dysphoria. Modern gender theory is confusing as well, and totally cis people may end up getting caught in mental traps they can't get out of and making decisions they end up regretting, inflating that suicide rate.
    Personally, I am very confused about my gender. I look in the mirror and I hate many of the things I see. My lack of curves, my prominent jaw, the width of my shoulders, the bulge in my pants. And when I look feminine, everything feels right. To hear others call me she, or lady it feels good. But, at the same time, I can be called a boy and it doesn't feel wrong. When not wearing clothes I can look at my penis and I don't hate having it. But to make it even more confusing, I dream of having a vagina, of giving birth and it's something I want so badly.
    What makes everything so much more difficult is the separation of expression from experience. Modern ideology says that males can wear dresses, be emotional and caring and vulnerable. That woman can be aggressive, strong and grounded. That the only thing that matters is what they ask to be called. But then, what does it mean to be female or male, if they no longer have definitions? They claim it's because gender is a social construct, but isn't everything? I know it was good to grow beyond the hurtful stereotypes of the past, but now everything is just so much harder.
     
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