Me Too Meets FLR

It’s okay I presume because it’s not the “normal” power dynamic of a straight male over someone else. Just a hunch though.

 

I feel it’s ok to, because we agreed to follow this lifestyle. Where as with Monica she could of felt pushed into it as she could of feared she might lose her job if she didn’t, and there was no previous agreement of consent.

 

There's no analogy. Bill Clinton was in a position of power over Lewinsky because of his position as president, and because of her age. Whether or not we class his actions as rape, sexual assault, or something else, he should not have done what he did.

By contrast, your wife has no such structural position of power over you. You have voluntarily consented to be dominated by her. We can applaud the happiness you have achieved.

Now, it is possible for a consensual power relationship to start off voluntarily and turn abusive. But that's not what you are saying.

 

A couple of years ago Monica Lewinsky stood up and did either a Ted Talk or a YouTube speech.
She states that she had fallen in love with Clinton.
I, like so many others, had but a jocular view of this situation, never feeling empathy one way or the other. Seeing her speech made me realize just how much this smart and pretty vulnerable young woman suffered during the aftermath. She came very close to killing herself because the foundations of her life had been pulled out from her.
She suffered!
I think the operative word here is vulnerable.
She was obviously quite accomplished for such a young age. She had not experienced much failure to that point, but I think lacked street smarts.
Her mentor, Horny Bill, did take advantage of her vulnerability. The entire episode was definitely worthy of Me Too characterization.
Please make the time to view Monica’s talk. I think it will touch your heart and you will likely never chuckle at hearing her name again.
Ss

 

Yes. I have a different view now than I did then.

 

It all comes down to consent in the end. Was there freely given, fully informed consent on a continuing basis? Was it there at the start of the relationship. Was she able to withdraw consent at any point?

I don't think there can ever be a hard and fast, black and white answer to that.

From what you say, I would imagine that Bill Clinton assumed it. At the time Monica would have too.

Arguably she was naive in not realising the mess that the media would make of her life if the secret got out.

But few people realise that. I do, which is why if I recognised a name or address on the mailing list for Miss Prim's Muir Reform Academy for naughty adult boys, girls and special girls as being that of a politician, TV or film actor, or sportsman, they somehow were discreetly erased from the record, and my memory.

There are many self-defined 'radical feminists' with that kind of tunnel vision. I call them 'reactionary feminists' as their attitudes actively support patriarchy/kyriarchy, the system that rewards privilege and oppresses those without, by silencing those whose lived experience contradicts their prejudices.

Typically they claim that all forms of commercial sex is rape, therefore there can be no consent, therefore all sex workers are victims of rape, therefore if they claim to have chose the life they are brainwashed Stockholm syndrome victims whose testimony has to be erased from the record.

Utter bullshit in my view. I've beaten a few (adult) boys' bums for money, was I a victim, or them?

I've know a lot of domintrices, sex workers of all kind, cis- and trans-women, cis- and trans-men.

The idea they are all victims is laughable. It's true some were, or have been, victims of physical, emotional or sexual abuse at some stage in their lives.

But that is probably true of very many women and not just a few men too.

Fortunately most feminists have much more sense, even most of those ones who call themselves 'radical feminists', but the reactionary feminists are very powerful force as their thesis is one that fundamentalist religion, particularly catholicisn, evangelical christianity, but also judaism, islam, sikhism and hinduism seize upon to justify their opposition to sex work, and emancipation and empowerment of women.

I've no idea quite what they'd make of FLR and chastity, but I'm pretty sure they'd be agin it.

So often their views seem closely aligned with fundamentalist religion, which seems male domination as being the natural order of things; so they ain't really feminists at all!

 

Getting away from Lewinski and Clinton... young single female intern and older married male president of the USA god only knows who can get their head round all the dynamics of that relationship to judge it accurately. Who felt what, and why who did what to and with whom can in respect to the two involved only ever be known by the two involved.


How often is it likely that two people that meet and develop a relationship are of approximately the same age, their attractive qualities are both about the same, they are of similar status socially and financially with employment that gives them the same amount of responsiblity, they both have equal levels of dom/sub tendencies and their relationship dynamic is that of two equals in other words they are equals in all respects.

It seems that we are saying that unless all the above conditions are met then one is taking advantage of the other even manipulating them in some way... and of course if it is him doing that then she is a badly done to Metooer and he should feel the full weight of the law, experience public shame lose his job and be ostracised socailly, even go to prison.. or be castrated and shot... and if the reverse is true that's ok.

Just checking what the ground rules are... I don't mind to much what they are ... within reason of course... as long as they cut both ways and are applied equally and evenly.

 

Yes, once you start herding people into good sheep and bad goats, based on who or what they are, without knowledge of them as individuals, you are being profoundly disrespectful.

That is true on the issue of Monica and Bill. We can't know the details, and anyway, unless one claimed rape, the details are no business of our, and we should not judge.

It is equally true of anybody who demeans others because of the race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, physical or mental abilities, nationality, class.

That is how the hating starts, that leads to concentration camps and genocide.

 

Lawinsky set him up. How can she ever be considered a victim? She kept a semen tainted dress and gifts to provide evidence against him. She was an adult, not a little child. I don't understand why feminists think women have no agency and wouldn't be able to turn down indecent offers. Plus, she was offered another position when the staff noticed she was spending much time with the president, yet she refused to change position. If there's a victim here, that's Bill. As for your case @PouchPantyLover , I wouldn't be surprised metooers or feminists in general would think of you as a victim. They generally look down on housewives but always praise stay at home dads.

 

All guys have to remember is whenever you take your penis out of your trousers (locked or not) there is almost always the potential for some negative consequences.

Whether that's fair or not ..well I think not but like most of us we've lived with that for so long we kind of accept it .. but its not a discussion worth starting ... of course it not fair but it is never going to change.

 

If there were a woman president who wanted to abuse her power over me in a sexual way (and I was single), I sure as heck would enjoy it and let her.

And like Monica, I would own my choices later on, not shame the president.

 

Ahhhhh the 90's...

Flash forward to current day...current POTUS, current questions of abuse, rape, mysogyny, corruption ... somehow the man is getting away with it. Somehow the dynamics have altered course 20+ years after the Lewinsky question, even admidst the height of #metoo.

My point is how we define what is acceptable seems to be very by the minute, very much influenced by those in power, or those attempting to keep the power, or perhaps those who seek to take it. There are trends, such as #metoo that are desperately trying to upset this, but sadly they seem to be more opportunistic than honoring victims. Even more sad is how #metoo has already begun to fade...

In a FLR, there may be some universal rules or understandings, but each circumstance is individual. Each circumstance deserves indivdual reflection, as all are most certainly not created equal.

Could a FLR be seen by a feminist as anything other than consensual sex? Short answer is yes, because any physical harm can be quantified, and therefore used as evidence. Even when there is consent, the state can exercise the power to decide, and may see it fit to set an example. #metoo is about recognizing victims, and upholding standards of accountability while lifting victims out of the trenches. Without context, FLR is likely seen as abuse. But even with context, so many seek to define standards that do not universally apply. And so, FLR is taboo and better left unconfirmed.

BDSM, FLR, Chastity, all being in the taboo category, will struggle to recieve any public support well into the future. I also think that the nature of discussion around sex has regressed. While in some ways laws have liberalized, the kind of sexual behaviour we are concerned with on this site still has a powerful potential to be used as a form of proof of complicity with depravity, abuse, and many other misunderstandings and judgments.

 

BDSM is not Abuse. Consent is required.
I assume you gave consent to the power exchange. If so you are not an “abuse victim”.

The “yellow flag” that’s relevant to this situation is “My partner(s) and I have large disparities in age, income, social status or social privilege, and we’ve never really talked about how that might affect how much agency each of us has in our relationship or scene.”

My opinion is that it’s about respect.

Review and discuss the text from http://www.themarkbycpi.org/bdsm_is_not_abuse.html here:

“
BDSM IS NOT ABUSE

[English] [Espanol]

For those who are concerned that BDSM is inherently abusive...
BDSM -- Bondage and Discipline/Dominance and Submission/Sadism and Masochism -- is not abuse. BDSM is about voluntary authority exchange, sensation and stimulation, trusting one's partner(s), and sharing nurturing love and healthy pleasure.

Abuse has been masqueraded as BDSM by those seeking to validate their abusive relationships, but they are concepts which are in fact inherently distinct from one another. BDSM cannot exist without consent, consent that is informed, revocable, egalitarian, explicit, enthusiastic, and given of sober and cognitively-developed mind. In abusive relationships, one or all of these elements of consent are missing.

CPI is committed to providing consent-based education in service of kinksters and people in abusive relationships alike.



If you or someone you know are in a relationship you think may be abusive, please utilize the resources at the bottom of this page to reach out for help.


For those who are concerned that abuse is happening within the context of their BDSM relationship or play partnership...
These checklists can serve as a starting point for important conversations if you are still unsure about whether or not the BDSM relationship you’re in may be healthy. The words “partner” and “relationship” are used throughout to refer to interactions which may last over the course of a scene, or over the course of a lifetime:


Green Flags:

Green flags are protective factors of a scene or relationship that ensure that the people within it are safe and have agency. If most of your flags are green, you are likely in a safe and healthy relationship. Just remember that most of these are ongoing goals which will need some maintenance and check-ins on occasion.

• I and my partner(s) each have more than one place or person from which we can get information and support about BDSM and kink.
• My partner(s) and I became involved with each other over a longer period of time, with intensity building in a gradual way.
• My partner(s) and I traded references, (which we followed up on) when we were getting to know each other.
• I trust my gut/instincts about people and my surroundings.
• My partner(s) and I may grow and change over the course of our time together, but we each take individual responsibility for that growth and change.
• My partner(s) temperament is mostly steady and predictable, and so is mine.
• All of the responsibility I and my partner(s) have as part of this relationship or scene is responsibility we have each consented to taking on.
• My partner(s) and I may have disparities in age, income, social status, or social privilege, but we talk about it when we need to and are careful to not let it affect how much agency we each have in our relationship or scene.
• When I or my partner(s) set a boundary, that boundary is not tested or questioned unless or until we change that boundary together.

Yellow Flags:

It is not uncommon for there to be some yellow flags in a healthy relationship or scene. When you notice a yellow flag, it is an indication that you either need to double check that your yellow flag has not threatened the safety and agency of yourself and your partner/s, or that you and your partner(s) need to do some work to turn that yellow flag into a green one. Sometimes that work can be done within the relationship, sometimes it needs to be done by one or two partners outside of the relationship, and sometimes a counselor or therapist can be a helpful ally as the work is done. (See the resources at the bottom of this page to find one in your area.)

• I and my partner(s) each only have one place or person from which we can get information and support about BDSM and kink.
• My partner(s) and I became involved with each other very intensely, very quickly.
• My partner(s) and I did not use references.
• I question my gut/instincts and frequently try to explain them away to myself and others.
• Though they may not know it, my partner(s) need to change, and I know that I can help them.
• My partner(s) are somewhat unpredictable in how they treat me from one day to the next, or it seems to be difficult for my partner(s) to predict how I will treat them from one day to the next.
• Sometimes my partner(s) put the responsibility for their behavior on my shoulders.
• My partner(s) and I have large disparities in age, income, social status or social privilege, and we’ve never really talked about how that might affect how much agency each of us has in our relationship or scene.
• I am sometimes nervous about setting a boundary. When I do, that boundary is tested or questioned.
• I don’t like when I am asked to communicate or make decisions, so I seek out power exchange relationships where there seems to be less need for that.

Red Flags:

Red flags are signs that there are elements of your relationship that likely make you or your partner(s) unsafe. If one or more of these applies to you or your relationship, it’s time to call in outside help. Please see the resources listed at the bottom of this page.

• My partner(s) break my consent, do not seek out my consent at all, or I have agreed that my consent is not relevant.
• My partner(s) hurt me physically or emotionally outside of the context of consensual BDSM, or within the context of BDSM, but beyond the boundaries to which I consented.
• It is very important that I behave in certain ways so that my partner(s) will not be angry, upset, or attempt suicide.
• I have considered suicide as an option for getting away from my partner(s).
• My partner(s) make it very difficult or make me feel guilty for seeking out information and support about BDSM and kink from other places or people.
• I have a lot of gut feelings and instincts which tell me that what is happening is wrong, but I don’t let myself listen to them.
• My partner(s) can’t help the way they behave, especially when I do something wrong.
• Of course, this is not an exhaustive list... If you don't feel good about your relationship or play, that's reason enough to reach out for help.

“

 

Cool. But you’re relating your experience between husband and wife, which is wholly different. So your comparison does not relate. You don’t know if they ever “...really talked about how that might affect how much agency each of us has in our relationship or scene.” but I assume they did not because (per Wikipedia)

“She continued to maintain that the relationship was mutual and wrote that while Clinton took advantage of her, it was a consensual relationship.” and ”although it was consensual, because he was 27 years older than her and in a position with a lot more power than she had, in her opinion the relationship constituted an abuse of power on Clinton's part.”

Hence it’s a yellow flag. Hence it’s an interesting thing to discuss and argue over. Consent was given but it was still an abuse of power. But... you can’t equate it with your situation.

I assume you’re not saddled with massive debts she’s paying off.
I assume your social status hasn’t skyrocketed after marrying her.
I assume you ages are within the rule:
½(your age) + 7


Finally, I am not sure you can call him a “rapist”, legally. It can be wrong, and not be rape. But that was besides your major point I think.

The connotation of an FLR, to me, is wholly different than much of “Femdom” that might look like abuse, force, and power if it weren’t a scene. FLR denotes an actual relationship that extends in time and pervades through the partnership. A power exchange, but not abuse of power. At least to me. I’d rather not see “FLR” and abuse and rape in the same sentence.

Ok. So In the end you and I agree “consent” is key. But I think there’s a Good point about the yellow flag of real (non-consensual) power indifferences that prevent a proper consensual power exchange. It doesn’t matter if it’s F/m or M/f.

 

We’re so close... but I disagree with her definition of rape. I disagree that the MeToo movement is defined by gender. It’s about sexual harassment and abuse of power. There are male actors that have opened up about their experiences.

So while it’s women that bear the brunt of this in the world, I don’t agree with the passionate MeToo person’s characterization and I don’t agree you can use your consensual “gender role swap” experience.

You can disagree with that MeToo advocate’s argument and still understand MeToo and the valid arguments and issues they bring forward.

For me, I don’t fantasize about a gender role reversed world. Maybe you’re scratching at a fantasy itch without realizing it. Many men do. My submission is to my partner only. I don’t believe in -archies. Patri-, Gyn- or whatever. I don’t believe in supremacy.

My relationship is with my wife. We chose the dynamic. It doesn’t conform to any ones expectations but ours. It’s completely willing.

I don’t like the association of FLR, BDSM, D/s with abuse and non consensual acts. And I don’t think it makes a good argument.

 

Just picking up that phrase. I suspect you mean that you believe that in the real world, there should not be any gender-based hierarchy, whether patriarchy or gynarchy. If so I am very much with you on that.

It could also be taken to mean you deny the existence of 'The Patriarchy', as defined within feminism. (Or the term I prefer, kyriarchy, 'rule by the lords', as our rulers include women of power too.) If this latter meaning, then I think you would be mistaken. I find modern intersectional feminism to be a very useful analytical tool.

 

Oh I believe patriarchy exists. That’s just reality. It’s not fixable by gender flipping everything to a Gynarchy. That’s decades old fantasy material, it’s silly and misses the point. It is a false solution often held up; that argument should be knocked down.

So it’s the former.

 

Is it desirable to begin with? I think what happens in your bedroom shouldn't be everyone else's business wether they approve or disapprove. Are you looking for some BDSm marches and marriages that aknowledge the D/s relationship?

 

It really depends where! In Denmark, in the 1980s a group came together to campaign for public accrptance of gay BDSM. The response was, "Why? We already do!"

Then when Berndt decided to enrol the group to help set up his farm as a gay BDSM holiday camp, the first thing he did was to go down the local bar and tell everybody.

It is still going 30? years later as a self-owned co-operative BDSM holiday camp, the locals know and don't have a problem with it!

 

I think where you could get into trouble is when consent is given but over time there are insideous slow changes in the relationship that may or may not be wanted or be acceptable. An outside observer would say that is abuse and the "inside participants" wouldn't as the change was slow. It may be a wise tenant that in all relationships you take a step back and try to look at it from an outsiders point of view. If your happy, awesome. If something appears out of sorts, time for a discussion.

 

If you were asking me personally the answer is yes More broadly I think we need not explain past 'taboo' for such a word or category is self explanatory.

I agree that what happens in your bedroom shouldn't be everyone else's business, but we also have freedom of speech, and sexual liberty should not be an exception.

totally agree. Only issue I see is when things go awry as @PouchPantyLover mentioned

and the burden of proof becomes difficult to say the least. Particularly to an audience that likely sees the behavior, consensual or not, as taboo.