Religious discussion (continued from “Christianity and Chastity”)

Forgives me for what?

Is your god a merciful and forgiving god?[/QUOTE]

Youve read enough to know He is

 

Do you think you are more merciful than your god?[/QUOTE]
No. Tho I am very merciful compared to many.I think my capacity for mercy is a gift that God has given me, and that cultivating that virtue further is one of the tasks He has set for me.
Btw I know it’s going back a bit in the thread, but you made mention of “burning the homos according to the Gospels”…. where did you get that notion?

 

Yes. Do you want me to expand on that?

 

For starters, if you suspend your disbelief and conduct a thought experiment, you’ll be able to see that a god who creates everything out of nothing is free from all constraints, moral or otherwise. After all, such a god defines what is good.
Secondly, I think you’re being a little over literal in your understanding of the story. Sounds like you imagine planet Earth, teeming with human beings, and this god capriciously wiping out all except one family - including (one must presume) millions that live on the other side of the world and share no history with the society in which Noah lives. But that’s not the worldview of Genesis. This story takes place in a context where “the world”, or “the face of the earth” is supposed to be understood as everything that is known to the reader. So what is being described is more akin to a nation being drowned, not all nations. Moreover, this nation is described as wholly consumed by evil decadence. This god elects Noah not just to build an ark, but to warn the nation of the impending flood and call the people to change. They hear Noah but mock and deride him. Remember also that these people live only ten generations from Adam, so it’s not like Noah warning you, and you going “oh fuck off you psychotic god-botherer”. These are people who know full well that there is a creator god, but live in wilful disregard of his authority. Finally this god says “so be it” and the waters come. By this action he restores the earth and humanity, which otherwise would have descended fully into moral darkness.
What entitles me to interpret the story in this way? Well, that is how the Church has always traditionally understood it. The idea that the Genesis narrative is somehow timelessly literal is a novel idea, mainly popular amongst American Protestants. Also look at the text itself: it is tediously specific about the precise construction of the ark, and it’s quite clear that a vessel of that size couldn’t hold two of every species on earth. There ARE places in scripture where impossible things happen (e.g. the feeding of the 5000), but when they do, it’s explicitly stated that this is a miracle, i.e. an exceptional suspension of the laws of nature. That isn’t so in the case of Noah’s ark. We’re supposed to take from it that this god tells Noah to take what’s necessary for building a new world. The type of storytelling going on here is figurative. It almost certainly describes a real and very extensive flood, and invites the reader to consider that events of this kind happened as a consequence of human sin. However, it’s also important to note that afterwards this god promises the Noah family that no such corrective measure will happen again - and the rainbow is set in the sky as a sign of that promise. So readers then and now are meant to take from this that any future natural disasters are NOT divine acts of retribution - it’s just that “shit happens”.
This is not me offering you my own cobbled together apology for the story of the flood. It’s the mainstream traditional understanding. The destruction of an evil nation which disregards repeated calls to repentance is justice. God did indeed offer mercy, but only Noah and his family accepted the offer.
I look forward to your response.

 

Postscript: the rainbow in the sky thing should, for example, prevent arsehole homophobe pseudo-Christians from saying that AIDS is God’s punishment of homosexuals. There’s a four letter word for anyone who says this and it begins with c.

 

Compare the story of the ark with the story of God parting the Red Sea so that Moses can lead the Israelites out of bondage to the Egyptians. Here it’s obvious that we ARE meant to take it literally: the text describes the sea parting and the water on each side being like a great wall. Then it crashes back down and wipes out Pharoah’s army. It’s not reasonable to say “oh it was probably just low tide or a drought”; you must either believe it’s a miracle or a lie. In the Bible, when there’s a miracle the writer lays it on thick. If we were meant to believe that the ark contained literally every species on earth it would go on and on about: “antelopes led he, and porcupines; rhinoceroses and snails and gekkos. Ants and lizards and great giraffes did Noah drive into the ark, together with goats and millipedes and horned toads..” etc.

 

So you really don’t see the incredible self-contradiction in these things you say…?

 

We human beings, having been given free will and an entirely perfect world to live in, and therefore completely responsible for all the shit we do, gratuitously rape, abuse kids, steal, cheat, kill, torture, pollute, squander our gifts and take delight in humiliating each other to gratify our own pathetic appetites and egos… yet according to you, it’s outrageous we should ever be judged. On the other hand God, Who (if He exists) has given us everything we need to be happy and live in mutual love, and Who is always willing to forgive everything if only we fess up, is apparently “spiteful” for allowing us sometimes to face the natural consequences of being evil.

 

And it IS His ball, and He CAN take it home if He wants. Except He doesn’t, even though we repeatedly piss in His face. I bet you’d take it home if it was yours and He treated you how you treat Him.

 

It’s like, you don’t believe in God, but if you did, you’d perversely blame Him for all OUR choices.

 

Again you strangely overlook the fact of our free will. If indeed you don’t believe human free will exists, then of course the whole Christian narrative makes no sense. We’re just genetic code mindlessly spooling out. Ok fine but that’s remarkably unlike the world as it appears to me, and to most people. Didn’t mean you’re wrong, exactly; but if you’re right, then in my terms of reference there isn’t really a you to be right.
Btw I may be mistaken but it sounds like your genetic code is causing you to type things that read a bit like someone judging the Israelis for doing what their genetic code is causing them to do.

 

No He didn’t make any bad. We did that all by ourselves.

 

We’re all “due” a smiting, but we don’t get one because God never punishes anyone.

 

I do apologise, I’m entertaining a guest. I’ll get back to you later but still hopefully leaving you time to repent.

 

What leads you to suggest God is inactive on this planet?