Chastity without Femdom or FLR

For us, I had been into the kinky lifestyle "idea' way before I met my wife. Before we married I told her of my interest and she "attempted" to support me. After 15 years of a roller-coaster of kinks she just asked to stop. I had a strong interest in chastity and still wanted to keep it, after a long talk she agreed. However with her being vanilla it wasn't going to be some dreamed up way of using chastity, it had to be realistic....

So when its "her time of the month" she lets me know, I put on my device and I give her the keys to it. She puts them up and I am in chastity, this also keeps my mind on her knowing she isn't 100% also. However, I do not get out when her time is up, I get out when she is in the mood for sex. This may or may not happen before the next period. If not I stay in chastity. The shortest I have been this year is 8 days and have had a 34 day run and this time, going in May 5th, will be longer than that. We have two older kids out of school now so I could easily stay in till they go back to school.

There is a bit of a power exchange for me but much of it is a symbol of my devotion and love to my wife, and also a symbol and outward showing that I wish to bypass masturbation and self satisfaction and wait on my wife's mood so that we both can enjoy the moment together. With this there really isn't any form of D/S in the relationship.

 

There is as much variety in male chastity as there is in the rest of life. Bear in mind that forced chastity (locking the penis in a device) is most definitely a form of bondage. So you're kinky just by wearing a device. I think that pretty much all of us want to be locked up so that our keyholders can, at the very least, control our ability to get hard and have sex. I think a lot of us want more. The very idea that you can have chastity all by itself begs the question. Why would you want to be locked up unless you want someone else to control your ability to get off? Why would your keyholder do this? I am pretty sure it is because you want her to make sure you only get off when she wants you to. She may be doing it because she thinks it will make you happy.

We started out with my lioness locking me up because I asked her to. She really didn't have a clear idea why she would do that, but she listened to me and read my posts. Over the last five months (been locked all that time), she is developing her own, independent idea of what will happen to me. Mostly it is about sex, but she has inserted some other stuff in to. Of course, I want rules and discipline and she is beginning to accommodate that need. It's a process. It sounds like you are starting off the way we did. Give her time, months, to start working out what your chaste life will be like. Have fun! We are.

 

Interesting to read the comments further up about chastity and depression. I am a switch. In the past I have tended to switch over weeks or months rather than hours. I have learned that submissive fantasies are often a precursor to a bout of depression, whereas dominant fantasies are not. I have never worked out whether there is a causal relationship or indeed any relationship. My currently reawakened interest in chastity doesn't feel like it's heading that way (I sincerely hope not), it just feels exciting and scary. Maybe the difference is that I at last seem to have a genuinely interested and supportive partner rather than one who will play to please me.

 

We always had a wife led marriage and until we started chastity play, we never viewed our WLM as a sexual arrangement. Once she started denying me orgasms, it became necessary for her to control me in our relationship so we revised our WLM to accommodate chastity and we are learning as we go along. It is not a strict D/s situation as we still love and respect each other like we always did. It is more of having to view her as the sexually dominate person all the time in order to keep myself from demanding an orgasm or just taking care of it myself.

I never approached it from you angle where there is no FLR. I can see it working somewhat but your wife/gf would have to maintain sexual control over you every day and hour and I do not know how that would not result in a FLR.

 

My wife and I have been married for going on 20 years. She is aggressive sexually...she loves to have intercourse, once or more time daily. For us it was more about focusing my desire on her needs as I was having a difficult time "keeping up"...denial has become an opportunity to tease and enhance my sexual need to the level where I can satisfy her any time of day or night (or as she puts it, drop my pants and present a hard throbbing cock on demand). By keeping me caged or denying me orgasm, I become more assertive in bed and more attentive to her needs (increasing as time goes on). I can at the drop of a hat bring her to orgasm (being always hard and ready), then go into a denied state after bringing her to orgasm (I don't cum) waiting for the next opportunity to please her (whether minutes or hours away).

It is more of a sharing of the dom/sub role between us I guess. As I become more sexually frustrated, I temporarily take on the dom. relationship, but when it comes to my satisfaction she is dom and I am sub which keeps me on edge (sometimes for a month at a time, etc.). We are not into humiliation, and she is not really leading more than I am as we swap control in the bedroom depending on the "goal". That at least is where we are at right now...things evolve When it finally is my turn to cum...I can tell you that I will do literally anything to achieve an orgasm, and she certainly is in complete control at that point (even up to delaying the orgasm). If she changes her mind however...there is an inverse effect and the next time we have sex, I tend to pound her VERY aggressively! Good luck with your relationship...each one is unique from my perspective.

 

Very interesting to see how others approach this. I am a single man whom has decided to put myself in chastity because I cannot stop myself from masturbating. I love doing it, so that's not a problem . The problem is a miss out on things that I enjoy doing in order to masturbate. I'll spend hours to myself. While this is healthy for my cardiovascular system and I've justified it by continuing to tell myself this, it is not healthy mentally. I haven't dated anyone seriously in years. I'm lonely. The last sexual I had was about a year and a half ago. She was amazing, I felt like a kid again it felt so good. But since she lives so far away I found myself going back to my old habit.

I have a question for those here that are doing the sub/dom rolls. How does this make you feel? I have read some stories about how the dom completely humiliates the sub. I do understand this is what both partners want but I can't help but feel like the sub would feel worthless after such an encounter. I don't know if I could handle this. I have more questions. But basically wanted to add that this journey is something I'm really doing for myself. I do enjoy wearing this thing, even though I've had some very painful experiences with it. I do not like the pain. I'm still trying to get the adjustments correct. I wouldn't totally be against finding someone to be a key holder so that I wouldn't have to rely so much on self control. My goal is to masturbate once a week.

 

@Tusk11 If you read some of the posts on here and think about the underlying context of them, you will see that it's often the subbie who is guiding the Dom. In the case where the Dom rules the roost, I'm sure the subbie is quite able to end the "regime" if he or she feels the need.

 

If someone were to humiliate me as part of their "Play" be it relationship based or even in the moment there would be a very short conversation, I would have my key in hand, and I'd never see that person again. Ever. Humiliation for me is a hard limit and I mean it's a Hard Flipping Limit. I grew up playing Dungeons and Dragons, liking math class, and being awkward with girls. I do not fetishize humiliation.

And if you're not into pain then you make that a limit too. You say "no pain". End of conversation. The one thing that submissives get to do is to set those limits and (ideally) revise them as time goes on. So if someone is being told by his Keyholder/ Domme/ Top that his cock is a useless apendage and he may as well never have it out of a cock cage for all the good it does, odds are that the submissive ~agreed~ that such talk was acceptable. They should find a thrill from it. I don't. I don't even claim to ~understand~ it. But I don't have to. It's not my kink.

In an ideal world everyone is doing things that makes both themselves and their partners feel good at the end. Surely the world isn't ideal (can I call you surely?) but we do our best and give people the benefit of the doubt when we don't have the full story (usually).

 

I think someone said an important thing about all this; something anyone who has been a real-life top knows: the bottom really controls the play. As a top, I was providing stimulation to my bottom that met her desires. Those desires often included pain, control, and some aspect of humiliation. But as an ethical top I would never do anything that my bottom considered a limit. Over time, those limits often changed as she trusted me more. Relaxation of limits only makes being a good top more difficult since I was taking on more and more ownership of the mental and physical well being of my bottom.

Ironically, most bottoms (or in the Internet, subs) believe that they are being possessed by their tops (Dominants/Dommes on the Internet) and that they are giving a great gift to the top of their submission. Please! Topping is hard work. Letting someone spank you or otherwise play with you is not a gift to the top. It is a gift to you. You owe your top something for making your dreams come true.

Now, the word humiliation means something different to everyone. Some would consider it humiliation that There are pictures of my penis here and on my web site. Or, that my lioness makes me consume my semen (a new wrinkle I learned about today on the blog).

I don't. I see it as a gift to me. My lioness is taking control in a real way. She is demonstrating this by making me wait to come (been 8 days since my last orgasm and 5 months since I have been locked up) and now finding other things for me that I would never do on my own. What does she get out of this? Nothing more than knowing she is making my wish to bottom come true. She is doing it out of love for me.

That's my point. Having someone top you is a great gift. Treat it that way with respect and deep gratitude.

 

With respect... Uh. no.

There's nothing careful about having a hard limit, one that's hard enough that I will walk out of the relationship if it's crossed. Now, to be fair, I think that such limits should be stated up front so no one is surprised by them. Breakups should always be well telegraphed before they happen.

But I can honestly say that if someone SOOOOO misunderstands my kink that they even THINK that I'd get anything good out of being humiliated then I have no business remaining in a relationship with them. And there is no compromise there. There is no "middle ground" on that one.

But hey...if it's your kink, I say kink on man... kink on.

 

Just to add to the thread, here's my situation.

I own my own construction company. Wife is at home with our 4 kids. Life is great. I am a big dude, very athletic and muscular...my wife...petite. I realistically could do whatever I wanted to her in the bedroom, or easily force myself on her whether she liked it or not. Not in a "rape" way, but I mean I could physically dominate her and have my way with her even if she fought back.

However.

Being a big guy, the bread winner, the provider etc...whatever you want to call it...I feel a lot of pressure and maybe power in all of the things I'm doing. Wifey, on the other hand...runs the house, literally. She is amazing and although not bringing in "money"...she really does add so much to the family that is way more than I could ever do and I love and respect her for that.

In regards to chastity. Well, I introduced it as a fun thing to try. We've tried a few other kinks, but she is pretty (or should I say was) vanilla. I approached it as a way for me to give up some power in the relationship and transfer it to her...my ability to orgasm. We tried a little bit here and there, a weekend....maybe a week, and she noticed that I was honestly a little more attentive to her and she really liked how I behaved when on lockdown.

She has some rough menstrual cycles....and has never liked having sex while on her period...too messy. So, that started out as the default...the minute she started her period, I went on lockdown. Then when she stopped, I got unlocked...and during that time, she'd get a couple or oral orgasms from me when she wanted them or when I would give them to her. Then....she started making a Honey-Do list during the month of things she needed done around the house, and maybe a few funny or sexy tasks as well....and the list was given to me when I got put on lockdown and I would not get unlocked until the list was completed. Usually about 10 days and I would be able to get the lists done.

That is pretty much how its been going...but lists have been getting longer and harder...average 14-18 days now to get the lists done. So more than half the month is on lockdown usually.

The only twist is that one day I found the keys...she NEVER lets them lay around...so I took 4-5 pictures of the keys in places around the house and throughout the day texted them to her saying they were being held for ransom. It was all in fun.....but she didn't think so. When I gave her the keys back that night...she informed me I would be on lockdown for a long time.

She had never really done much with ruined orgasms before...but she decided that I would be on lockdown until she completed giving me 10 ruined orgasms. However, I am away working right now, and only get an opportunity for a ruined orgasm on weekends. It is taking a long time to get to 10!!! I am presently on my longest lockdown and am only half way to 10.

Our relationship is very normal, no D/s stuff...no humiliation... no sissy stuff...she just plainly has control of my orgasms and my penis. It works for us....and its great.

 

@CanuckSnowman With respect I'm going to disagree that you're relationship is "no D/s stuff". Clearly she's the Domme because she has the keys to your cock cage and has the rights to control you beyond just the rules and games you set up.

Now, this is where we differ greatly and why I know I'm not a true submissive at heart:

She left the keys where you could find them. You have not said that there was a rule against touching the keys so for now let's assume that there isn't. She then took the keys back and ~punished~ you without having set a rule that you had violated. I realize that for some that's the ultimate in hot. For me? No. Hard limit. You don't get to punish me for something that wasn't a rule violation. Further, she went on to extend your lock down date beyond the boundaries of "finish the list". Now I'm assuming you two had the agreement that when the list is done, the cage comes off. Okay. Good. But to just add time because she was pissed at you for something that you didn't know you weren't supposed to do? Not so good to me.

Now I'm not judging you or what you kink on. If I'm taking everything here as a "worst case scenario", I'll say that I disagree with that style of Topping/ Domming. I don't think it's a good thing for a Dominant to change up rules on a submissive or "set them up" (as perhaps she did by leaving the keys were you could find them).

Of course in a "best case scenario" you're happily going along with this and you think it's a hoot that you got extended in your cage and are "suffering" for her even more. Sounds like a good plan then if that's what turns your crank.

For me? So not a crank turner.

 

@PrfHawker you are obviously not submissive. Simple. Although I consider myself not cruel, I do find a certain enjoyment in inflicting a degree of pain when needed.

 

My comment of no D/s stuff was in regards to anything other than my orgasms, I should have made that clear, sorry. I am talking about every day life, going to the mall, shopping, seeing family etc...it is all normal and we are equals on that level and she nor I are dominant or submissive. Hope this makes more sense.

 

@CanuckSnowman we may just be debating semantics then. What I read (and I could be misunderstanding it), you did something she felt was in appropriate of you and you were punished for it. On the other hand, if she came to you and said "You didn't clean the toilet like I asked, so now it's 12 ruined orgasms to get that cage off" I suppose that would be something different for you two? And would that move you more towards a D/s?

Overall, I think we're pretty much just debating labels though as it sounds very much like your "punishment" is a more of a welcome challenge than it is a true "I will learn to serve her better" kind of thing.

@Mistress B My only concern in your comment is that there are two things I've talked about in this thread, one being my own Dominant nature and how much I, by nature, resist being topped (or rather when I've bottomed I'm usually topping from the bottom), the other being my concerns about "best practices" for Power Exchange relationships.

Granted, I know that every couple is different, but there are things I've learned over the years that represent red flags that a PE or D/s relationship can be straying into abuse. I subscribe very much to the Submissive's Bill of Rights and it's one of the first things I hand to someone coming to a local munch. If they haven't read it before they show up, I hand them my phone and say "please make sure you've read this". I realize that not all bottoms/ subs/ slaves ~want~ rights at all, and that's fine if they so choose, freely and without coercion.

Things that set off my warning lights though are things like "changing the rules without warning, and using punishments to teach the rules". An example is this dialogue: "You did not fold my blouses correctly, you'll be in chastity another two days now." / "You haven't taught me how to fold your blouses a particular way, Miss" / "So I guess you'd better figure out how I like it done or it'll be another two days after that!" If you don't know the rules, it's unreasonable to expect someone to follow them. In fact it's setting them on edge, and it's a common tactic of an abuser to put the victim on the permanent defense.

Another red flag is the unwinable "game". "I expect this house cleaned spotless in the next 30 minutes or it'll be over my knee for a spank for every bit of dirt I can find". Unless you're talking a 300 ft2 condo, that's pretty much a task that can't be done. It's a guaranteed punishment. But it's also a guaranteed disappointment. Again, it's common for abusers to use this as a way to instill a sense that the victim is worthless, and cannot never please them. That builds into a form of dependency where the victim begins to doubt if they could please ~any~ one.

Again, if a couple of consenting adults puts these on the table, agrees that they Could happen, and sets up mechanisms to ensure that AS they are happening everyone's still on board with it, I will be the LAST person to say boo. Heck I somewhat relish the "game" of "heads I win, tails you lose". I think with someone who knows it's just a game, it's a great thing. But I also know (or ensure) that my partner is aware of what I'm doing, that my "disappointment" is for the kink and the fun, and not because I am truly upset with them as an individual.

I don't believe its up to a specific role, Dom or sub, Top or bottom to be aware of these red flags and to hold ourselves to a standard of safe practice. When the dust settles, the echo chamber of the internet can easily encourage us to take risks we ought not, and in doing so really risk ourselves, our partners and our futures. Someone outside this lifestyle is already pre-disposed to reject what we do. Many people who know nothing about Chastity, FemDom or WLR could read this and think we were all abusive horrible people, and sad victims. Which is why I tend to believe that within those who understand the kinks we should still be honest and open and transparent. Fantasies are just that, and reality is different.

I got some wisdom from a friend at a munch when I started in this lifestyle and I was big into joking about Safewords people chose. One woman had the safeword "Ocean" until she realized that her favorite utterance while beat was "Oh shit". The two sound, sadly, very similar. The advice I got was this: The best safewords are No and Stop. They're not sexy, and they're not fun, but in court no one ever managed to use "She didn't use her safeword" as a defense, and there's nothing more damning to someone charged of abuse as the exchange: "Did she say 'stop'?" / "Yes" / "Did you stop?" / "No."

I realize I've meandered off topic here a bit, and if I'm being very honest I'll confess that there are aspects of this "fantasy" that concern me, even squick me. I know everyone has their kinks but some of the posts I've read on Tumblr especially make me wonder if I'm reading about people deeply immersed in their fantasy, or if I'm reading the braggings of really despicable people. If you haven't poked over, btw to @cagedlion 's journal, he posted a very good commentary on the Extreminism of the internet. He locked in a lot of my thoughts as well.

Sorry to ramble off topic if offense was caused.

 

I'm unclear PrfHawker about exactly where you come from. You've written about attending munches and requiring people to read some document you call a bill of rights. It's certainly not universally accepted by any community I know. Other than that, you clearly don't want to be a bottom, but it appears that being locked up is appealing. I certainly know how that feels. For fifteen years I was an active top who got hard thinking about being locked up. I finally decided to flip my switch and I am locked, bottoming and happy. I've kept my limits reasonable. If Mrs. Lion does something that manages to go over the line, I wouldn't even think of walking out. I would simply sit down with her and discuss. it. First and foremost she is the love of my life. She is my keyholder because she loves me. I trust her with my life. You may want to consider if you are in a similar situation and that maybe it isn't the worst thing in the world to stretch your limits a bit.

You cite how unfair it would be to punish someone for incorrectly performing a task never demonstrated. It is certainly unfair, but not necessarily wrong. Many people I know like to play this way. Both top and bottom think of it as a way to encourage research and initiative. Plus, for many, including me at this time, is the desire to be punished. The discipline itself is a desired outcome. I've played with bottoms who wanted this. As a bottom myself, I wouldn't consider being punished for performing something incorrectly even if I never received instruction. It's part of the game.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I share your discomfort with Internet fantasies (or pretended reality). Most is unrealistic and much is outright dangerous. The only reason I decided to chime in here is that like you, I am disturbed by people failing to separate fantasy from reality. I read on this forum from people who claim to be orgasmless for a year at a time and talk about how at the end of each year they get a ruined orgasm. Well, do they want us to believe this has been going on for decades? They write that way. Believe me, the last thing someone who has spent a decade in a cage wants to do is debate in this or any forum about chastity basics.

While I can't know for sure what is true and what isn't. I can probably make some very good guesses based on decades of real life BDSM experience. I worry about people, particularly lone males, who want so badly to be submissive that they are willing to believe and even try everything they read here.

 

I began my journey in to BDSM play 20 years ago in College, but have only formally explored the communties and such over the last 6. I was amazed at what I found in that time and have made one of my regular pastimes to read as much as I could both from active practitioners and from hobbyists. At my local gatherings I make a point to meet as many people as I can and to understand their own journey as well as what they bring to the kink table.

The Submissive Bill of Rights has made the rounds of the internet for some time now. I first found it when I first put my toes into the water, though this particular posting of it is one of several floating around. I would also provide this link, written I believe by a submissive who disagrees with the rights as listed and labels them "Fluffy bunny crap". What I find compelling more in the second post is that she (or he) clearly understands that she (or he) has the power to give up those rights if so chosen. In other words, the Rights themselves are a basic starting point. An analogy is that we all have the right to vote, but no one is making you to the ballot box (at least not in the US).

When I see someone new to the lifestyle or the play, I believe it's important to arm them with the basic starting points. Self-identifying as "Submissive" does not mean they are weak, that they are unworthy of love, or that they must risk personal safety in the name of being a "true submissive".

Within my local community there is only one person who has read this list and rejected it completely out of hand as tripe even with the explanation that this is a starting point. Now to be clear, I also do not ~force~ someone to read them as "You may not enter without signing here and here and putting your initials here". But I do when I greet them, talk about what to expect, reassure them that we're all human beings first, and that this munch is a great way to locally network. If they are new and they immediately self-identify as submissive, yes, I bring up the document and suggest they take a few minutes to read it if it's new to them.

You misunderstand me.

First, if someone cannot be trusted to respect a Hard Limit, then what is the point of having a limit in the first place? Why even talk about a Hard Limit if the Top is going to ignore them and do whatever they'd like anyway? Save yourself the stress and just say "do whatever you like."

Second it does come down to trust and it does come down to "I believe that if my Top is taking me here, there is a reason and I trust them so I'll go along for now." That is the nature of it and I see it in my wife's eyes every time I tie her up, or suggest she let me play with her in a "new" way. It's that trust factor.

So if she says "I don't want you to use a knife on my skin", and I decide that I can "teach" her to like knife play, who is at fault and what is the remedy? Should she really try to "stretch" her limits? Or should she be demanding an end to the scene/ game/ relationship? Is she wrong to say that her trust is so blown that it cannot be repaired?

For me there are hard limits, lines I can draw and if they are crossed I will NOT be having a sit down talk to ask what went wrong and how we as a couple can continue. I won't because there is no continuing. My trust and faith would be so shattered as to be, I believe, irreparable. You trust and love your Lionness, and you believe she would never push you that far, and that's good.

Would I have other limits? Sure, soft limits for pain come to mind right off the bat. There's a point where the pain isn't erotic and I'd start to be moved to ask it to stop. Would I walk out on my marriage because my wife squeezed a testicle too hard? Of course not. But there is a big difference between pushing a soft limit and violating a hard one.

Exactly. When it's part of the game I say bring it.

Heck I say "Revel in it!"

If both parties are, as I said, aware that this is part of the game, and are aware as part of their planned relationship, then it's unlikely that anyone is going to be emotionally hurt by it.

And that's the thing. When the bottom either welcomes the punishment (or perhaps the term "funishment" fits), then there's no problem. Likewise when it's known that the Tsk Tsk from the top coupled with a frown and a sigh is really all for show, then no problems. It's when the bottom starts to internalize it and their own sense of self-efficacy takes a dive that I have concerns. It makes me question if this is a dynamic they consented to or not.

I don't think we disagree nearly as much as we think we do and that over a few pints we'd probably find that most of our disagreements are academic at best. Some of it comes to how we write (I'm a math nerd not a poet). a little healthy skepticism of the unknown person, and a lack of a true common lexicon for communicating.

 

You discuss hard limits. I certainly have some; for example, no dismemberment, mutilation, children or animals. I have seen people set up hard limits that are so restrictive they border on just stopping things entirely. Your example about knife play is instructive. If that were a bottom's hard limit, then I would never attempt it or mention it during play. However, if I felt the fear could add a new dimension to our play, I would bring it up in a non top/bottom session and even demonstrate on myself what it would be like. If I got a "no way" then that's it. You probably have hard limits you wouldn't think of enumerating in any negotiation. I, for example, don't want bugs in my play. I never told anyone that as a hard limit because it didn't occur to me. However, if Mrs. Lion should bring a spider over when I am tied down, she will see that my reaction is clearly outside the bounds of my comfort or discomfort zone.

My point is that hard limits when specified is a short list of fairly obvious atrocities. The more subtle, psychologically debilitating stuff generally comes up in the context of play. That's why I differ with you. It isn't that your top may inadvertently cross a line. It's how she reacts to the effect it has on you. I realize that people online tend to migrate toward absolutes; if anyone ever did X, then I wold leave forever. Reality is way more squishy. Mrs. Lion and I are just learning to play in our new roles. Even after all my time as a practicing top, I guarantee something will come up that will turn out to be a new limit for me.

It all has to do with understanding oneself. I know I am very strong. I also know that I trust my lioness with my life. She could accidentally cross that line you say would make you give up your relationship instantly. If my lioness happens to do that, I will tell her to stop and then work very hard to help her stop hating herself for hurting me.

In my book, it's all about love. My love for her trumps all. It gives her a lot of power even without the top/bottom stuff. Her love for me is just as strong. The last thing I need to worry about is that she won't honor something that I consider a hard limit. My bigger concern is that she will worry so much about possibly hurting me that she won't go as far as I would like.

 

It all has to do with understanding oneself. I know I am very strong. I also know that I trust my lioness with my life. She could accidentally cross that line you say would make you give up your relationship instantly. If my lioness happens to do that, I will tell her to stop and then work very hard to help her stop hating herself for hurting me.

The key word is accidentally.

If you had explained your limit if spiders and then she knowingly and willfully tied you down and pit a spider on your chest, I'm not sure that you'd be so forgiving.

I respect your apprehension of hard limits. I've read limit lists on Fet life that left me wondering where the kink was. But, at the same time, if a bottom is to trust the Top, so too should the trust go the other way. If I call it a relationship ending hard limit, then I expect it will be taken as such.

And a quick thought re: "you're clearly not a submissive". I hope that is because I don't seem to want to submit. I've met and respect many submissives with hard limits that they Trust will be kept too.

 

There's one thing I didn't mention. What about play with someone you don't know that well? After all, many people bottom to new tops. Also, some men and so desperate for keyholders they will agree to bottom to any woman who agrees or even agrees to take money to do it.

This is a situation where limits are nice to discuss but not too useful. I suggest that any activity between people who haven't built up the necessary trust should happen under different rules. First and foremost, instead of discussing what won't happen, the discussion should be about what will happen. In other words, the top needs explicit agreement from the bottom for any planned activity, rules, etc. This will change over time, but until trust is firmly rooted, this is the only safe way to start.

Second, the bottom has to have a way to escape. In the leather community, most people do there initial play sessions at parties where there are dungeon monitors who will hear a safe word or stop unsafe play. In terms of forced chastity, the caged male should have an emergency key (a good idea even with committed couples) so he can get out if the keyholder is being unreasonable. Of course, using the key will either end the relationship or require agreement from the keyholder that the release was justified. In any case, it makes no sense to let someone you don't know tie you up.

In the leather community, the strongest protection is reputation. Very few bottoms would agree to play with a top before checking references. Every bottom who wanted to play with me checked me out with other members of the community. I always asked about any potential bottom. It only makes sense. Online that's not generally possible. That's another good reason to never allow yourself to be totally at the mercy of a stranger.

One of the things that I don't like about online D/S, chastity, etc. is the sense of desperation on the part of would-be bottoms. They are so anxious to experience power exchange that they will accept any person agrees to play or lock them up. A bad partner is better than no partner, right? No, wrong.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

I can't imagine a situation like this unless she forgot I don't like bugs. Your point that if she did that intentionally, it would have a strong effect on me is correct. I would instantly make sure she understood that she had gone too far. After the play, I would try to find out what happened. In my experience I have never played with anyone who deliberately violated any of my limits. I have had people ask me if they could try pushing a specific limit. Sometimes I would agree.

As a top I have done the same thing. I've asked if I could try something that was a limit (I can't wrap my head around the difference between hard and soft limits...both are the same to me... they set boundaries I shouldn't cross as a top). If I got a positive response, I would test the limit very gently. If I got a "no", then I wouldn't even try.

Of course in the course of any D/S relationship, limits will be tested or sometimes accidentally ignored. As a mature, self-contained person, I can deal with that. I have met bottoms who were minefields of neurosis. When in the course of interviewing them or checking references I learned that, my reaction has been to respectfully decline to play. I don't want to deal with making someone's life worse. When it comes to topping I have always followed the camping slogan, "Leave the campground cleaner than you found it." I want anyone who bottoms to me to leave our time together happier and more secure than when she came in. I absolutely trust that Mrs. Lion feels the same way. She is only doing all this because she wants me to be happy and she knows I want it. With that motive, I have nothing to worry about beyond getting what I wished for.

 

Good heavens, this is all rather heavy for a Monday evening, lol. All I would say is that I'm not a saint and after a bad day at work and in a mood I may have gone somewhat over the top and lost my temper. Just because I have , on occasions, punished my maid for things she has not done to my satisfaction and after regretted it because it was mainly my bad mood, doesn't make me a wicked Mistress. We all have our off days and I always make sure she is ok. A cuddle works wonders.

 

I don't think anyone is judging you at all @Mistress B . Heck we all have our down days, whether we are tops or bottoms, caged or keyholder.

And yes a good cuddle is amazing. As is chocolate.

I also think that between @cagedlion and myself we have a good deal of experience, intelligence, and a little stubbornness. So we're diving pretty deep to find a good debate and discussion here. We both clearly agree that limits need to be respected, and that there are lines that represent "Do not intentionally cross". Where we're disagreeing is the rate which the lines are approached, how to handle them, etc. And even there we don't disagree much.

I've often been shocked when someone says they don't have an emergency key, and here my friend CagedLion brings up again the importance both for safety but as a stop gap against something radically changing.

So for the most part we're pretty in agreement, just we have different terms and different experiences that lead us here. One of mine was the experience of being told by a respected Domme that "No submissive knows their limits until they're tested, so I ignore everything a sub says about limits until I've seen it for myself."

As for Hard vs Soft, I think calling something a soft limit is saying "please don't do that but if you feel you really want to try me, go very slow and know I'll probably stop you" where a hard is "don't do that; I know I don't want that; it's possible I'll leave you if you go there."

Ergo.. cross a hard limit and the sub is free to walk out the door.

 

I don't like the idea that some limits, being soft, are testable, but hard limits aren't. It's hard enough as a top to keep a bottom's needs, likes, and limits straight without the added complication of asking myself, "Is this a hard or soft limit?" In my mind, if a bottom puts something out of bounds it will stay there until the bottom revises her limits.

I also don't consider, "please don't do that." as a statement of a limit. It's a request that as the top I can honor or not at my discretion. As a new bottom myself, if I say, "Please don't stick that huge dildo up my ass without a lot of warmup," I am not stating a limit, just asking for a chance to avoid too much of the kind of pain I really dislike. If Mrs. Lion chooses to shove the large one in anyway, that's up to her. On the other hand, if I said, "I don't want anything bigger than three of your fingers up my ass at any time. This is a limit," that is a totally different message. I would never expect to find anything bigger than three of her fingers up there without prior negotiation.