Chastity cages and Christianity

You've a great gift for helping us to know what the Bible says as well as its intent. Further, you do an even better job of explaining that to believe and to follow--is a choice. Thank you for this. I'm proud to stand next to you in your faith.

 

I effectively identify as an atheist, but like the vast majority of atheists would never be so arrogant to say "There is no God". I don't think that can ever be proved. It is possible to prove God, but again I think it is highly unlikely that proof will come. I accept that you personally might feel that XorY proves God exists, and I'm interested in that. I've yet to find any good reason to suppose that God exists, therefore I live my life under the assumption that God does not. Using the term agnostic, although strictly accurate, has the unfortunate assumption of a person having a 50/50 opinion on the subject, I think the probability of any gods is far far less. I believe nothing, I'm just skeptical.

 

Two points to make about this:
1) I don’t want to prove that God exists, and in fact don’t think it can be done, because the only things that can be proved to exist elements of the observable universe, and God isn’t that.
2) God is not by a long stretch the only thing that can’t be proved to exist and yet is most definitely something I’m certain does exist. A good example would be any other person, because it can’t be proved that they have a subjective existence similar to that which I experience myself as having. But I’m intuitively certain they do, to a degree that makes me dismiss out of hand any skeptical argument that other people are simply automata. The way in which I am secure in my belief in God is just like that : I live in a world which seems imbued with the stamp of His presence and understand the narrative of my life as a journey with and towards Him.

 

The word is "faith". It's been used throughout the ages. Folks may feel intuitively that God exists, that's an "axiom". Folks can say they can "prove" God exists because how else could this or that be. They're called "theorems" . But there is not proof. It's very difficult to prove something while being inside the system. Typically you need to be outside the system and observing it to prove that it's true or not. Instead, we rely on faith. And faith is not absolute. Sometimes our faith is stronger than at other times. Often times our faith is incomplete. Faith may be the one concept in the bible that is referenced more than any other. It is foundational both in the old testament and the new testament. It's discussed in the context of a spectrum. Sometimes there's a lot, sometimes there's a little. The bible never speaks of proof.

Interestly, I don't know of a place in the bible where it says you must have faith or you will be condemned. It speaks of the benefit of faith, but not of the consequence of lack of faith. It is kind of a given that our faith is incomplete. Luke 17:5 has the apostles asking for more faith. And James 2:17 says that faith is not the most important thing: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead".

It's why I've never felt it important that someone else "must believe". Maybe it's there somewhere, but in so many other places the bible talks about incomplete faith. It's one thing to share our faith, it's another to force it on someone. I believe someone can be righteous without faith.

 

I get what you are saying. As you have faith you don't need the same level of proof as I do. I cannot believe anything without a certain level of proof, so I look for evidence to challenge my world view on those questions that, particularly on the origins of life, I don't know to be true. Where there is debate, where we cannot know. That is where the conversation starts to get interesting. Not....
"How's the weather" or other pleasantries.

 

I'm guessing you've read this verse from Hebrews 11: "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And this from Ephesians 2: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith".

You should certainly read these in their full context but the idea is certainly clear. And there are many more references to the importance of faith.

The apostle John preferred the expression "believe in" which is the Greek equivalent of the English word "trust".

 

I do put more "faith" in the New Testament. Much of the old testament is not to be interpreted literally. And the Ephesians reference is an example of where I say there are benefits of faith, but not of what happens if you don't have faith. But I still find John 2:17 important and is at odds with Ephesians. John is looking for works. Faith without works is dead. Note that he didn't say, works without faith is dead.

 

Some excellent dialogue here. I especially like the "faith without works" references from the book of James. (Chapter 2).

Folks often confuse what is the role of "works" in the Christian faith. Perhaps this may illuminate the role:

Suppose I believe that the light chandelier above my head will come crashing down upon me within moments. I see its mounting cracking. I hear the creeking sounds of it about to give way. The light flickers as the electrical connection is being torn loose. It's gonna fall! I believe.

What will my "works" be if my faith that the light will fall upon my head?

I get the heck out of the way!

Likewise, with the Christian faith. If you strongly believe that Jesus was/is God incarnate and paid the ultimate price for your sins so that you can be made perfect in His eyes..........You are going to likely offer that homeless guy something to eat. Or visit some old people in a nursing home. Or limit your alcohol intake to be a better husband.....Or......or.....give your wife the key to your chastity device if you have a masturbation problem.

We don't do this to earn favor. That's not what works are for. Rather, good works are the manifestation of what lives in your heart.

Thus, the Bible teaches us that it's not faith OR works. It's works from faith.

 

Of course you could prove god exists. Just get it to demonstrate it's own existence.

It won't, of course, because it doesn't exist.

Or, as a proper god botherer would say; It does prove it's existence to those that are open to it's existence. Which is much the same excuse a heroin addict uses for continuing their use of the drug.

 

I'd like to understand your point better. I agree that good works are the manifestation of something that lives in your heart, but the point, "It's works from faith" I don't really get. In many ways, I believe a bit of the opposite. It's works in the absence of faith. Someone doing something good, because they believe it will earn them favor in God's eyes isn't as pure as someone who does something good because they believe it is the right thing to do. A kid who does something because he wants to please his Mom is at a higher level than a kid who does something because he believe his Mom will reward him. That's why I don't believe faith is necessary to be good in God's eyes. A person who believes in God, but is a jerk vs a person who doesn't believe in God but is selfless. Who would God be most pleased with?

There is a discussion I've had with a friend related to this. They believe you must "believe". I ask "Why?" Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? God has some need for you to worship Him? That doesn't sound like the God I know. The God I know has no ego. As a parent, do we do things for our kids because we want our kids to like us? Or do we do things for them out of love expecting nothing in return. I believe that's God. He expects nothing in return.

Luke 6:35.
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

So God expects us to do something for nothing in return, but God won't do the same? Sorry, that's not the way my bones feel. We are loved unconditionally. There is no ego to stroke.

 

what would constitute proof of the existence of God in your view?

 

Oh come on, don't waste my time on such nonsense, your god should know.

Just ask it to do it, fucking pray for once, I'll let you know when I believe.

 

Yes. The “belief” in God that faith demands isn’t belief the God exists, but belief in his lovingkindness. Like if someone says they believe in Donald Trump, you don’t think they’re saying that Donald Trump exists, they’re saying they trust him to come good on his promises. So, when Abram the nomad heard a voice saying He was God and that he would make Abram the father of many nations, Abram believed (trusted) the voice.

 

No I don’t need to do that, I’m completely uninterested in this philosophical question of whether or not God exists. I just take on trust that He does, and find it fruitful to do so.
What I’m asking is what YOU might find to be satisfactory proof - what might change your mind. And I’m only asking that because you seem to think that having his existence proven is a prerequisite to believing in Him.
If I were to pray for something specific and tangible and it came to pass (which sometimes happens), you would say I had not established a relationship of cause and effect and you’d be correct. Also if I could somehow show a relationship of cause and effect between me praying and something occurring, it could be said that what had been proven was that my prayer caused x and y, without needing the middle term of a prayer-answering God.

 

Im sure “my” God does know what would constitute a proof of His existence to you, but that’s of no relevance, it’s me who is asking you.

 

For someone who is effectively an atheist, that is correct, but that is the same for any proposition. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be. I don't think non-believers have a choice in the matter (anymore than you do in accepting something on faith. i.e. Belief without proof) . The onus is on the claim and claiments to be proven correct (that's science). Until such time that it is beyond reasonable doubt, those claims must (for us) remain in the "Don't know, may never know" camp.

You are asking "what evidence would convince you?" Let's assume that we have looked at a lot of the evidence, and so far we haven't found anything that isn't better explained through natural causes. Before I heard these arguments in favour, I could not have predicted them. In the same way, I or anyone in science, couldn't have predicted that the expansion of the universe wasn't constant, that it was accelerating. The hypothesis that it was a constant speed, then it was measured and tested and it became apparent that it was accelerating. Big surprise for everyone, and the beginnings of the discovery of dark matter and dark energy.

So we cannot know what evidence will convince us, we can only wait for evidence to be presented. Then see if, through thinking, testing and measuring, it holds up. Your question is moot.

 

Here is the nearest thing I’m going to offer as “proof that God exists”: a man appears in the streets of Galilee who preaches and performs miraculous healings. He develops a strong following with his subversive message but also provokes emnity. He confides in his closest companions that he is the “son of God”. He is arrested and publically executed. At the moment of his death the sky turns dark and large numbers of dead people rise from their graves. Three days after his execution his body is discovered to be missing. After that he appears physically to his followers. Then he rises up into the sky. Later still his followers experience a momentous spiritual awakening that gives them huge charisma as preachers, and instils in them knowledge that this man they followed was not only the “son of God, but in fact God and man simultaneously. And this tiny gang of lunatics with an utterly bizarre set of beliefs founds a movement that spreads across the globe and continues to this day. Furthermore, when I read the account of these events I’m convinced that they are true despite their ludicrousness, because the figure at the centre of the narrative seems to me to be a real person, not an invention of the human imagination. And when I attend one of this cult’s invocatory rituals I am left in no doubt that I have felt the presence of that same human/divine person in that room.
This is definitely not a “proof” in the scientific sense. But it leaves me with a legalistic proof in that I believe it “beyond reasonable doubt”. You ( @JaySaysYes ) don’t. And that is totally ok!
Incidentally, prior to these events in my life (being struck by the truth of the Gospel story and persuaded by my experience of Church services) I was more than skeptical about Christianity - I was extremely hostile and scornful. And when it happened my initial reaction was “oh fuck I’m turning into one of those insane bastards!”

 

There is more I could say about my own personal “conversion story” but I won’t unless asked because some find my long posts boring and/or irritating.

 

Thank you for sharing that!

If you read the eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life - the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, ask yourself the question, "Is this guy Jesus... is he Lord, Liar or Lunatic?"

If he was a lunatic, he did a brilliant job of deceiving his followers even to the point of appearing to die and coming back to life.

If he was a liar, again he was deceitful and was one of the worst humans to live because he induced many to face punishment by death for following him.

If he was Lord, he was & is the God of the universe who he claimed to be.

 

Look at it from this point of view: do you as a father want your son to obey you because (a) you love him or because (b) he fears your punishment? I'm sure it's the former. I used to live in fear of punishment because of my upbringing. But once I realized that Christ took the punishment for my wrongdoings so that I could have a relationship with the Father, I placed my trust in him.

That passage in Ephesians fully spells out the relationship of faith and works. "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." The works flow out of that relationship with God.

James is speaking as one who is an outsider looking in to your family. If you have faith, i will see it demonstrated by your works. If I don't see any works, then clearly there is no faith. For those who have works, I take James challenge a step further: I think you can examine a person's works to determine if their motivation is fear of God or love for God.

Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all you heart, mind, soul & strength. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is love your neighbor as yourself." You are right that God doesn't want his ego to be stroked. But he is not impersonal. He is a personal God. He has emotions and affections just like we do. He desires to be loved in response to his love for us.

 

I really like this analogy and explanation!

 

I sometimes see myself as some filthy and unruly vagabond who has been offered a place in the gang of a virtuous and gentle leader. I’m not a good man, but I love my boss and want to serve him well because he’s everything I could ever wish to be, but am not. When I follow his example I feel myself getting gradually less dirty and corrupt inside. When I don’t, I feel bad because I’ve let him down. I know he loves me and can’t understand why he would, but it’s the best feeling!
Quite often he tells me to do x, or not do y, and for the life of me I can’t understand why. But he’s my boss, I signed up, so obedience is part of the deal. If I don’t do as he says I’m in breach of contract. He’d be entirely within his rights to fire me… but he doesn’t!
In other words I’m like a really, REALLY crap version of St Peter…

 

I'd like to hear more! I'd also like to hear how chastity fits into your story now. Do you have a journal on CM?

This is totally ok in the sense that we all have free wills and he can choose what he wishes to believe as long as he is not causing harm to others. But it's not ok for you and I in the sense that we know what he could have and we wish that for him; we hate that he's missing out on that.

My daughter was married for 17 years to a narcissist who left her for another woman when she was 2 months pregnant with their 4th child. He put her thru hell but she's come thru it and is better off without him. She doesn't want to get into another relationship and marriage. Our hearts break for her because now that we've found an authentic intimacy in our marriage, we desire that experience for her.

Chastity played a key role in our journey. I finally surrendered my sexuality to my wife. That enabled us to find an entirely new level of intimacy I didn't think possible. I realized I hadn't surrendered my sexuality to God either. That relationship has improved as well.

 

There were two other crucial parts to my coming to Christ. The first was that the Theotokos appeared to me personally and drew me away from a situation where I was close to being involved in a very sexually immoral situation. I can’t go into details but She physically manifested, bathed in light, and literally warned me not to do a certain thing. The second was that I was accompanying another person to church (they were disabled and I was their personal assistant) and I impetuously received the Holy Eucharist. Having done so, I became concerned to discover whether or not I had literally ingested the Body and Blood of the Incarnate God, creator of the Universe and me. Thus began a quest that culminated a year later in my baptism.
As regards the first experience it would of course be entirely plausible to suggest it was a hallucination, and that was indeed what I thought about it afterwards. But regardless, it saved me from doing something truly terrible and to this day I’m grateful for that. And to the anticipated retort by skeptics that it’s narcissistic to think that I’m so singularly important to receive a direct intervention of that kind: it wasn’t for me, it was for the sake of someone else. It’s not my place to explain the circumstances further.

 

Hopefully, the example of love you and your wife project will sink in, and she will, in time, want that for herself. If only she knew. No I don't mean you should.