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Where do "relationship skills" leave off and "manipulation" begin?

Discussion in 'The Pedestal' started by Giles_English, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. As somebody else noted, we have a lot of questions along the lines of, "How do I get my wife to ____?"

    No matter how these are put, I tend to regard them as requests for relationship help. The English language is not very good at distinguishing between looking for an appropriate approach and being manipulative.

    Or do you see them as the same thing and equally OK or despicable? What do you think?
    Cincy likes this.
  2. When I first came into this lifestyle people had me scared about topping from the bottom, like it was the cardinal sin. Then I remember reading a post that @Vinny@Vinny had. I'll probably mess it up, but the idea was that people have to learn these roles. How do you expect someone to learn in a vacuum? You can't hand your wife a key and a book and expect her to emerge as some expert dominatrix. The idea being that you can say what you want and you can say what you like or don't like about the way things are going and that actually helps your partner learn their role.

    I think it takes relationship skills to understand when to discuss these things and how to say them without alienating your partner. If you're in the submissive role it also takes relationship skills to frame your comments as suggestions and then release any thought of "deserving" them. That's up to the dominant. I think where it can cross into manipulation is when you use your intimate knowledge of another person to get them to do what you want. Or if you trick somebody into doing something dishonestly. I think as long as there is open and honest communication with respect to the dominant and submissive roles, it's all good.
    traveler likes this.
  3. Treat your spouse like Gold. Do things for her that aren't even sexual and over time I'm positive she'll do more things to please you. The Key is start thinking about her as the most important person in the world and not yourself. This is what made the huge difference in our relationship. Trust me Try it
  4. In any relationship it is important to have open and honest communication. I will say that I find some methods and posts I see on here very dishonest and misleading. I won't quote it directly and it's not from this thread...but it was along the lines of "treat her great when you're locked and then slack off and don't be so devoted when you're not locked...she will quickly learn that you both are happier when you're locked". I couldn't disagree more. It's great that you want to be locked...it's great you want to be devoted and affectionate to your wife/keyholder...but have the courage say a few words. That's all it takes is a conversation explaining what you like and why you like it.

    I'll give an example. What if the roles were reversed? What if you didn't even know about chastity...but you have a healthy sex life with your wife. She has something in her mind that she wants you to do with her. With open an honest communication, she would say "Babe, I think ____ is very sexy, it turns me on a lot. I like it because _____. It also has other benefits outside the bedroom that I think you will like as well". What if she didn't do that? What if she acted poorly, had an attitude, or treated you different in some way...hoping that you would magically connect the dots and figure out what she wants and exactly why she wants it.

    It also touches on another important thing. Healthy relationships should have trust and love at the center of it, I think most would agree. When you incorporate Dom/sub into a relationship it should only bring you closer together as a couple. It requires a certain level of courage to submit and it requires care and responsibility to have so much control over another as well. It results in a special bond that's difficult to experience anywhere else and it is definitely worth the effort to get there. Everyone has different kinks and fetishes and sometimes they aren't comfortable discussing them (especially in detail), even with their spouse. I would challenge you to fight that fear, don't be evasive. Be honest and dive deeper into that special bond and trust that's created when you do this correctly.
    Sublifter49 and Joan.t like this.
  5. I was subject to this treatment when I was introduced to the concept of male chastity by a boyfriend.
    It upset me quite a lot to think that he didn't really care for me unless he had a stupid plastic thing clamped around his genitals.
    Aiki, Metalman, Sublifter49 and 5 others like this.
  6. Exactly my point Amanda ;).

    There's nothing wrong with being submissive or enjoying chastity or enjoying any other kink/fetish. That being said, at least have the respect for your partner to be honest and discuss it. That will avoid the confusion and a lot of frustration.
    Mascara^Snake likes this.
  7. Honest discussion is indeed key.
    Sublifter49 and Trey Jones like this.
  8. As an eternal optimist, I'd say there are mainly two possible explanations for such behaviour. One, the man is trying to improve himself and the device is helping him focus. Two, he is being manipulative and stupid. However, telling which one it is can take some time...
  9. I really don't think you have any idea what I was feeling at all. Not an inkling.
    Trey Jones likes this.
  10. I so not often agree with Mascars_Snake, but in this she is absolutely right ! How can one expect his partner to be courteous while beeing an ass at the same time?

    In regards to the original question I think talk always ok as long as one does not play the petulant child when the discussion does not go in his favour.
    Why should there be anything wrong expressing ones wishes - even or especially in a BDSM -relationship where sub is limited to meet his own needs by a certain degree anyway...
    Sublifter49 likes this.
  11. Tumblr has been a useful tool for sharing what I'm thinking, what turns me on, how I feel, and in general communicate without telling her what to do. If she doesn't ever want to try some of the things I send...then tumblr pic is where it stays. She's aware, and if nothing comes of it, then it wasn't meant to be.

    It works both ways, she's sent me plenty of some things she wanted, was feeling, or curious about...and it was something that made it easier for her to broach the subject.

    I don't see it as manipulation for either of us to know what turns each other on. It is a bit manipulative to purposely alter your behavior in a negative way to get what u want. My kh does notice the little things without me trying lol.
    Sublifter49 likes this.
  12. Thanks! This is a good discussion! The main question in my head is:

    Are you OK with
    "What approach should I use to get her to do X"
    "To get her to do X, try approach Y."

  13. From observing this site for the last 8 years most inquiries about "how do I" are about wanting their wife to be a key holder. My standard response is to ask her. Tell her you need help, it's important to you and you will find a way to make it fun for her.

    When questions arise about asking how to receive a certain activity or longer lock up times etc...I usually ask them about their dynamic and if it's really about giving her control or if it's just a fun game. If it's truly about giving up control then I tell them to make her aware of your fantasies and let her decide. If all else fails try pleasing her in other ways and she may just surprise you.

    If we are talking honestly here, no one really needs any advice on manipulating anyone. It's human nature going back to infants crying for attention. On a grown adult it's a little silly but sometimes a useful way of nonverbal communication. Women do it too, ever hear a woman moan extra loud when you are doing something right? You know it wasn't good enough to make a noise like that...she was teaching you, manipulating you to repeat a certain behavior. Been extra vigilant around the house, scrape the ice off her car, make her coffee and she decides to treat you to something...we have all lived and are familiar with the concept of cause and effect. I am not sure why anyone needs advice on that. If someone asks, I usually think it is because their partner isn't doing it like they want and they've already tried manipulating them and failed cause they don't want to do it his way. They know what he wants but the answer is a nonverbal no.
  14. I think it's a very thin line between relationship skills and manipulation. Everyone that's in a relationship wants something out of it, it could be sexual favours respect,new shoes , stimulation or almost anything. Even if your the sub in the relationship you can manipulate your Dom to do things that you may want. It's Avery fine line between the two in my Opinion.
    Giles_English, Sublifter49 and Joan.t like this.
  15. I could never submit to anyone without long term trust that comes from years of trust. Discussion by both about limitations and desires is all that makes ANY kind of relationship work.
    "I want kids"
    "I love animals"
    If you can't find common ground no relationship works. Can't find that without open honest communication.
    Fuck topping from the bottom, stupid concept, talk about wants and be willing to accept NO for an answer!
  16. My wife loves me and wants to please me, but I could never manipulate her in any way. She will never do anything she doesn't want to do, and that's the way I like it. I love it when she says "no" because it show her dominance of me, and make me feel so submissive.
  17. I'm sorry if I come across as stupid or provocative; I hope that I have managed to get an inkling of your emotions at the time. Let me guess:
    You felt like you were just a tool for fulfilling his kinky fantasies, not a person he loved. You felt angry that he was behaving badly on purpose, trying to push you into fulfilling his fantasies. You felt he was putting his fantasies before your happiness. And there was even more to it all.


    What I was trying to say was that I hope that not all men who become less pleasant when unlocked are doing it on purpose. I'm sure that what you felt was real. But I do hope that at least some men are smart enough to understand that intentionally angering and/or insulting their partner is not a sign of true love.

    You see, I can easily imagine a man who's better behaved while in chastity being that way because he's happier when locked. When it took you years to find the courage to confess to your fantasies, and those fantasies are being fulfilled, you'll be trying extra hard to make sure this new state of affairs persists. Being unlocked makes you afraid and sad, making you less pleasant to be around. You're not trying to make your partner lock you up; you're just less motivated to stay on your best behaviour. Sure, a perfect man would not behave this way. But we're not perfect, are we?
  18. I think that if you knowingly act, for lack of a better definition, like a man after being given an orgasm, you are manipulating. The thing is there has been a lot of discussion about the crash after a real orgasm and the time it takes to recover. I think for a woman to expect a man to be the same before and after that event is unrealistic. If a man is laid up in bed with a fever, you don't expect him to be all romantic and subby. You understand he's going through something and give him space and support. For me post orgasm behavior is sort of the same thing. I need help getting back to where I was. I don't do it to cause a specific reaction in my wife or give her the impression that she's just better keeping me locked. It's just me being me and with her help I'll get back to being a better me.
  19. CBT.....not that perverts, Cognitive Behavior Therapy. Chastity is one form of cbt and there many. "Manipulation" is a form of cbt and does not necessarily imply ill intent. I myself was very shy about what I liked and used subtle manipulations to get what I wanted and I wasn't being pushy or malicious. I'm my opinion as long as it makes both parties more attentive, caring, open, happy, and results in a better stronger relationship who cares about why it works. Just one opinion

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