The Official "Permanent" Caged/Denial Matrix post.

Discussion in 'Chastity and orgasm denial' started by Tom Allen, Dec 18, 2020.

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  1. Tom Allen
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    Tom Allen Member

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    #1 Tom Allen, Dec 18, 2020
    Since the original thread from 2019 is long, convoluted, and doesn't get to the real point until halfway through it, and because there's still some interest in using the matrix as a way of defining one's situation, and since so many people have asked about making the thread into a sticky, I've decided to copy the important parts of the thread, which ended up as a blog post from last year. This way, the initial post in the thread has the important definitions, and in case the mods decide to make this a sticky post, it will be easier to follow.

    TA
    ...

    Over the years, I keep getting sucked into discussions in which some person asks a question about “permanent” chastity, and the thread devolves into a mess in which most of the responses are about defining “permanent” and then arguing about whether someone’s ideas meet some arbitrary standards. The original question ends up being completely overlooked.

    This is something that I’ve been thinking about for a while, but only recently had the light bulb blink on.

    We all “know” what the term “permanent” means. Unfortunately, none of us can agree on it.

    Because the conversation come up several times a month, and because everybody has their own variation on the definitions, I’m going to propose a matrix, similar to those political or religious ideology matrices that you see all over social media.

    For you geeks, I’ve defined the two variables as: Caged (i.e., the wearing of a device) and Denied (i.e., the restriction of orgasms). This is because whenever we discuss it, the two are inevitably intertwined, which is one of the reasons why we can’t seem to agree on the terms, or we spend so much time explaining our own definitions.

    The matrix is set with the variables on the Caged scale from Never Caged to Always Caged, and on the Denied scale from Always/Often Allowed Orgasm to Never Allowed Orgasm.

    I’m attaching a picture for clarity.

    [​IMG]

    Defining the Caged (x) axis:
    (There’s going to be some subjectivity to this, which is fine.)

    0: Obviously, never locked, perhaps not even owning a device.
    1: Has a device, worn sometimes for play.
    2: Wears the device for extended play (a weekend, or maybe a week once in a while).
    3: Wears it for extended play, or fairly frequently
    4: Wears it frequently, maybe several days a week, or maybe a week or two at a time.
    5: Wears it roughly half the time.
    6: Wears it more often than not, with frequent removal.
    7: Wears it almost all the time, but unlocked for certain occasions or situations.
    8: Always worn, with infrequent removal (medical, travel, etc.)
    9: Always worn, including travel, and their doctor has seen it.
    10: Essentially permanently installed.

    Defining the Denied (y) axis:
    (Again, assuming that there will be some subjective evaluations)

    0: Always allowed to have an orgasm, perhaps frequently. Denial isn’t even in the vocabulary here.
    1: Almost always will get an orgasm.
    2: Orgasm rarely denied
    3: Usually gets to orgasm, although there might be a surprise ruin in there.
    4: Orgasms may not be guaranteed, or possibly used as a reward.
    5: Orgasms maybe half the time, perhaps ruined.
    6: Orgasms are usually denied.
    7: Rarely allowed orgasm, although possible ruins/milkings allowed.
    8: Orgasms not allowed, although may have accidental ruins or emissions.
    9: Orgasms not allowed, ruins not allowed, may possibly have accidents.
    10: Orgasms and emissions never allowed.

    For example, in my own situation, I’m locked up except for travel, medical, and similar reasons. I remove the device about once a month for a good scrubbing, and it goes back on That puts my Caged score at about 8. Likewise, Mrs Edge no longer allows me to have an orgasm, but once in a while I’ll have an emission of some kind in the cage – and I suspect she intentionally pushes my buttons to trigger them. So, on the Denial score, again, that’s about an 8. This means that when I’m describing how our relationship goes, 8,8 is a good shorthand description in the context of having a discussion about long term or permanent.

    Some guys use the term “Permanent” to mean that they are always locked up, although they are frequently unlocked for playtime. Those guys could quickly describe their situation as, for example, 4,7, or 6, 8. Really hardcore players might be 9,9 or higher.

    A few notes:

    I floated this idea a while back, refined it, and recently floated it again. The scales are based on feedback from users at The Chastity Forums and Chastity Mansion, and a few other places.

    Since we have so many geeks in this community, I tried to keep to the convention of using an (x,y) scale, and labeling it alphabetically (Caged, Denied) to make it easier to remember. I suppose people could also label themselves (for example): C8, D8.

    Notice that I started off talking about “permanent chastity,” but I’m not even using the term in the scale. That is because I’ve discovered that there’s really no way to use the term objectively that won’t cause disagreement or confusion. Instead, the scale now becomes an easy way to describe one’s state of physical access and orgasm denial. By getting rid of the word “Permanent,” we toss out the baggage and various connotations. attached to that word.

    Finally, I fully expect that there will be someone who will claim that this scale isn’t enough for them, and that their idea of “permanent chastity” goes up to 11.

    https://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/2019/12/04/the-chastity-denial-matrix/
     
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  2. Dr MBogo
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    Dr MBogo You heard the lady! In you go.....

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    #2 Dr MBogo, Dec 18, 2020
    8/9
     
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  3. Guest 2684
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    Guest 2684 Long term member

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    #3 Guest 2684, Dec 18, 2020
    My KEYHOLDER has me at an 8/7 and it is the best
     
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  4. Tom Allen
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    #4 Tom Allen, Dec 18, 2020
    Last year when I wrote this, I was solidly at an 8/8. I'm only unlocked for travel and medical, and Mrs Edge does not allow me to have orgasms - period. However, in the last year or so, she has discovered that she enjoys triggering a caged orgasm, usually by whispering naughty things in my ear during lovemaking that she discovered will push my buttons. The thing is, I used to not enjoy them (or more correctly, not enjoy how I felt afterward), but over the last year, I have found that I've begun to enjoy and look forward to them. So, I'd say that this puts my score at more of an 8,7 now. I'm still caged all the time, but now I'm "allowed" caged/ruined orgasms, as long as Mrs Edge gives me permission.
     
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  5. HerLittleBitch
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    HerLittleBitch Under the spell of my loving @Mistress-M

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    #5 HerLittleBitch, Dec 18, 2020
    8/9 for me :)
     
  6. ChasteCel
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    ChasteCel 7/6 on the TomAllen-Rectrix scale

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    #6 ChasteCel, Dec 18, 2020
    Still probably a 7/6, but edging towards an 8/6...
     
  7. Guest 6019
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    Guest 6019 Long term member

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    #7 Guest 6019, Dec 19, 2020
    7/3 looking to be 7/4 or even 7/5, but the choice will be hers as things develop.
     
  8. Tom Allen
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    #8 Tom Allen, Dec 19, 2020
    Locked almost all the time, but frequently allowed orgasms. That's a bit different from most of the users, I think.
     
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  9. Peter Rabbit
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    Peter Rabbit I'm her bunny

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    #9 Peter Rabbit, Dec 19, 2020
    (7,6)
    On being kept caged:
    I’m at 7 now. I live in my cage, except when she wants me out.

    My wife promised after torturing my mind with the idea that, no, she’d never submit me to 10: essentially permanent caging. I gave her my key, not a tube of permanent thread-locker.

    I am proud to have lived in chastity, and proving I can brave level 9: Always worn, including travel, and their doctor has seen it.

    I’ve worn it many times through airport and cruise ship security. A doctor and his nurse has seen it. A urologist and her nurse know I am kept in orgasm denial. My wife knows and was happy she has no limits.

    On denial:
    I am at 6, or maybe 7.
    My wife is generous. My orgasms are usually denied. I can’t claim they are rare. I get more than many men in chastity. But her preference is give me perfect ruined orgasms: Completely twitchless pouring over and spilling out. No force. No pleasurable contractions. Just a release to relieve my aching balls.

    She wants me to have “accidents” and spontaneous ejaculation. This excites her. She’d never punish me for a nocturnal emission, or suddenly gushing out of my cage in her arms. It’s happened. She loves to keep me brimming and full.

    I can’t imagine ever getting past 9 for denial. She has expressed that she could keep me caged “always” and that I could only be allowed accidental spills in my cage from purely mental stimulation.

    I’m at 7,6 and know that 9,9 is our limit.
     
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  10. Guest 6019
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    Guest 6019 Long term member

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    #10 Guest 6019, Dec 19, 2020
    I have been locking since October. The longest for 9 days without orgasm. I self-locked when my first cage arrived and she found it on me in the morning. My initial goal was to stop masturbating a few days before the end of her period because I was lasting too long. I haven't looked back. I like the improvement in our relationship and we are taking things slowly. L is very vanilla but supports the use of the device to help me focus more on her. I have worn it 24/7 since, with a couple of nights off along the way getting used to it. And I have had two scout meetings and a kids paintball party, and I didn't think it appropriate then. Other than that I'm out briefly for an almost daily clean (about one minute) or for play. So I thought the 7 was fair. I would consider an 8 but I don't think my wife is particularly turned on by the cage itself, more the thought of me saving myself for her and not idolising other women.

    As for the 3...L doesn't quite understand my need to be denied more often. I think it will come in time, but vanilla L is likely going to need a more coherent argument from me, but doesn't want to talk about it. My chastity is like Fight Club. Do it, but don't talk about it. I have to be very subtle. I would certainly be up for more ruining, if we can get to that point it would be great. But again we need to take things slow and explore each other better than we were before. Which is happening. She would really have to embrace her domme side to get me to a 6 or 7, and I really don't think she will. Let's see over the years.
     
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  11. Lazlo Toth
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    Lazlo Toth C/D on the TomAllen-Rectrix scale: 9/9

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    #11 Lazlo Toth, Dec 19, 2020
    I've added my score to my profile. I encourage everyone under lock and key to join in. Make a note of Tom's definitions at the top and try to give an honest appraisal of where you are.......if willing and appropriate, of course.

    I am a "4/9" but gradually seeing myself moving towards a "5/9" or "5/8" There's some movement afoot to add anal play/milkings to the agenda in our house, so dropping from that "9" on the denial scale may result.

    Thanks!
     
  12. DrPinotNoir
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    #12 DrPinotNoir, Dec 19, 2020
    6,1 My cremaster reflex is wicked I literally have to come out of it because that muscle is strong and there is nothing stopping it from retracting. I can orgasm with it in easily. so Id give myself a 1. by her id be a 3. so Id say 6,3 if I had a cage that would eliminate the cremaster effect pulling Id be a 7/7 or a 7/6

    I love the scattergraph. Nice you turned this in to that. Love it!
     
  13. LockedAndSafe
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    LockedAndSafe Pierced. Caged 24/7 unless being used.

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    #13 LockedAndSafe, Dec 19, 2020
    This is a helpful scale. I think somewhere around 7/7. My keyholder says 8/7. And then she said "We obviously have work to do."
     
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  14. R2002
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    R2002 Long term member

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    #14 R2002, Dec 20, 2020
    8,9 for me
     
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  15. tecolote
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    tecolote Long term member

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    #15 tecolote, Dec 20, 2020
    I'd have a very hard time picking numbers. I've been locked less than a week, but we are moving towards long term, I think. I could tell you where I was a week or two ago (2.5, 1) but we are heading in a different direction. I'd hate to have to guess, but probably (7,?)

    Ok, honestly, what does that second number mean? Does it mean frequency of orgasm after sexual play? Does it mean frequency of orgasm per unlock? Per week? I feel like this number does not capture much information for me. My sexual play time is very infrequent. She barely ever teases me, but I am always encouraged to cum during sexual play. What number would that be? Compare with someone who is teased daily but is only allowed to cum infrequently (say exactly as frequently as me)... Is that the same number?

    It seems to me that a third number is needed for defining the frequency of sexual play?
     
  16. Miss Amandas boy
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    Miss Amandas boy Submissive to Mistress Amanda

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    #16 Miss Amandas boy, Dec 20, 2020
    3.5 on both for me.
     
  17. Guest 6019
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    #17 Guest 6019, Dec 20, 2020
    We can add an uncaged ruin for this morning. She stopped when I asked. My cum is for her pussy. Thank you wife 7/3.1
     
  18. Staylocked
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    Staylocked Active member

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    #18 Staylocked, Dec 20, 2020
    7, 6.5. Wearing it is pretty much the default. It gets removed when she wants to use it or if she wants to make it cum. She might let it be free for an overnight or a day after she allows an orgasm, just to help me remember what its like to be free.
    Currently she let's it cum about once every month, but I think its easing into once every couple months. It gets let out for her enjoyment maybe another time or 2 each month, but usually its easier to just use one of her dildos with the strapon.
     
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  19. Mojoman
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    Mojoman Long term member

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    #19 Mojoman, Dec 20, 2020
    Still a 2.1 here and happy to be there.
     
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  20. bplicker4u
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    bplicker4u New member

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    #20 bplicker4u, Dec 20, 2020
    7/3

    I am caged mostly 24/7, and only remove the cage when wifey wants cock.

    For the 3 on orgasm, I struggled with this and in the end was resolve on the 3. Wifey is fairly vanilla, and although she has gotten to the point that she tolerates my yearning to be controlled, she is not really much of an active participant, although lately she as started to rub up against me and/or let her hand wander over the cage when we are out in public. I do frequently orally please her without any reciprocation, and only orgasm when she allows. She has struggled with the keys, so they stay on the night stand and she hands them to me whenever she wants “her” cock. As she is a bit of a hopeless romantic, nearly every time I am unlocked with her, she tells me she wants me to cum after she has been satisfied and thus I usually cum.
     
  21. Mojoman
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    Mojoman Long term member

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    #21 Mojoman, Dec 20, 2020
    So your wife chooses to make you cum whenever she wants to. It seems to me that she still has full control. Relax and enjoy your orgasms !!
     
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  22. Burn_e
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    Burn_e Long term member

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    #22 Burn_e, Dec 20, 2020
    Same with me, 8/4. But orgasm only in the cage as my KH gave the key away for a undefined time.
     
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  23. Tom Allen
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    #23 Tom Allen, Dec 20, 2020
    Oh, that's an interesting arrangement.
     
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  24. Burn_e
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    Burn_e Long term member

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    #24 Burn_e, Dec 20, 2020
    She gave the key to her sister.
     
  25. Mimoza
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    Mimoza C7/D6 on the TomAllen-rectrix scale

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    #25 Mimoza, Dec 20, 2020
    Caged 7, denied 6 for me. Although we are moving to 8 on the cage axis. I really would like to stay at 6 on denied. I love my orgasms.
     
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