Women and men manipulate each other by taking advantage of sexual weaknesses/desires all the time. We manipulate our parents, our bosses, clients and all that we negotiate with. I have a Machiavellian personality professionally diagnosed, so I manipulate all that I can in life. I pose the question of isn't chastity all about manipulating men through orgasm control? I know that every woman I dated manipulated me in some way by using sex or the promise of sex. My wife manipulates me as I manipulate her. My boss manipulates me using money and my former coaches manipulated me because they decided if I played or not. I manipulate my customers so that they buy my services and manipulate the people I negotiate with. We all manipulate what we can in life to make it more to our liking. I do not think that manipulation is bad per say. No more than all the lies we tell others to get what we want or to spare someone's feelings. Lies and manipulation is neither good nor bad, as they depend on the reasons used and if they helped or hurt. I used positive reinforcement to get my wife to become my key holder and never forced her into anything. I never withheld sex from her to get her to behave as I wanted her to. She now likes chastity play more than I do. Isn't that interesting? I may try to manipulate her from time to time but after 5 years, that does not work anymore. I have manipulated her into not being manipulated anymore. One more thing. When a forum is composed of 99.5% men, it is a boy's club. If more than a few women were interested in joining, it would be different. I think the problem is that sometimes dominant women who join predominately male forums, expect to be viewed and treated as their subs do. The only one who gets my submission and to be called Mistress, even though she hates that title, is my wife. She is, after all, the one who manipulates my behavior by withholding my orgasms. It works too! That post by Mistress Lucy, which is now closed, got me thinking that chastity is all about manipulation and not blind submission to a superior female. The latter is perhaps more BDSM. It is simply different points of view, which is not uncommon among males and females, as to what kind of fetish you are into. So skipping the part about banning certain posts which is a different discussion, I am interested in your feelings about manipulating wives to become key holders. I think it rare that a wife or lover would just accept the keyholder role without some sort of manipulation, as it is against most woman's treatment of a loved one. If it were not for manipulation of some sort, I would have never got my wife of 45 years to marry me, had real life dominants, did a lot of kinky things or had as much sex in my life as I have had. My wife was the one who agreed to wife swap and have threesomes with other women, I never asked. It was all her doing or was it???????