I am often stoned, make that rocks, on the internet on a popular Marriage Forum. The forum is awash with posts about cheating, divorcing and marriage counselling. I often post that all of them rather go down with the monogamy ship than find another ship to stay afloat on. The idea of ethical non-monogamy is blasphemy and strikes fear into the hearts of those drowning in a sea of monogamy. Cheating framed in monogamy is so much more acceptable to many people. For most, monogamy is the only way to construct a relationship — and if there are “slips” or affairs, they believe that they are at least still faithful to that supreme goal of monogamy, ordained by God and society. To many people, the way I designed and lived my marriage makes me a sinner or pervert. In some parts of the world, I would have been executed long ago. In the USA, my stoning might not happen in the open courtyard of a public arena, but it’s happening in the courts, at social gatherings and on the Internet. It’s easy to sneer at sexually repressive third world nations — but when it comes to repressive thinking around sexuality, how far have we evolved in the United States? Not as much as we think. Same sex marriage is now OK and acceptable by all but the Troglodytes who cannot see that same sex marriage hurts no one and in fact, reduces competition for a mate, does not contribute as much to overcrowding of our world, and provides homes for many orphaned children, and dogs. Many tell me that sex is for reproductive purposes and since gay men cannot have babies, it is a sin. When I inform them that I am sterile as is my wife, than ask them if we are sinners too because we have sex often without any chance of reproducing, they hem or haw, not knowing what to say. Today we have same sex marriages allowed but what about people like me who were polyamorous for much of my marriage? My wife and I could not marry the woman we loved since we were kids. Monogamy is OK no matter gay or straight but loving and marrying more than one person is still not allowed as it does not fit into society's construct of monogamous marriages. People like my wife and our girlfriend who are bisexual are often marginalized even in the LGBTQ community which in my day refused to accept bisexuality as a valid sexual identity. My wife and girlfriend were labelled as lesbians in the closet since they were married and/or having sex with the opposite gender. So we were two bi women in a poly triad who did not fit into mainstream society or the LGBTQ one back in the old days. Add to that the fact that we had sex with other people, even outside of our triad and we were going straight to hell and the courts would label us sexual deviants which could be used against us in child custody and divorce proceedings. Our girlfriend had a son from a previous marriage and had to hide her bisexuality and polyamory from her ex husband or there was a good chance of losing custody of her son, despite her ex husband marrying a convicted felon who last we knew, was committing Welfare fraud. So we stayed under the radar for 30 years which is much easier with bi women than it would be for bi guys. Too guys dancing together and holding hands would set off alarms but not so with women. Men still determine what is sexually acceptable or not. I have been vilified online a lot over the last few years for not accepting societies model of marriage which has a 50% fail rate. Love makes us all feel that we will make it and divorce is for others. That is actually right, half of the time at least. We lived our marriage monogamish. Sometimes we were monogamous and sometimes not. It depended on what was going on in each of our lives. Sometimes we were open to the other or both of us having sex with others and sometimes not. It was ethical because we talked about it first, decided how to do it and always were honest about what was going on with others we were involved with. If one of us was uncomfortable, our marriage and each other, always came first. What we did was to choose marriage above all else, even monogamy. Yet many cannot grasp this since it is outside the box of monogamy. I will be the first to state that poly or non-monogamy is not for everyone. It has its own set of problems like jealousy and making all parties feel like they are not neglected or threatened with a loss due to someone else. It also needs all parties to understand the difference between sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy. The interesting part is that emotional intimacy is the dangerous one and yet what spouses are hurt most by are sexual intimacies. We still feel like we own each other's bodies and exclusive rights to provide and receive sexual pleasure. This was not how mankind started out but what society and religion dictated to bring order and control over the population. Among most species, monogamy does not exists. It is not the natural state of things. What is interesting is that the few species that do have monogamy, monkeys and humans to name a few, all have a social order. It is easy to see that society is what makes a species monogamous, not nature. We will always be physically and sexually attracted to others. Most will keep this to themselves and others will act on it. To deny it is not realistic. I just read that as many as 80% of marriages has one partner that cheated. A few years ago I read it was 70% but apparently women are adding to the increase. I can believe this based on so many men and woman I know who hooked up at least once. Most times it is a one time thing, maybe repeated every few years during an out of town business trip or when your spouse is away for a while. It does not interfere in the marriage unless the spouse confesses out of guilt which is the worst thing you can do. It relieves you of your guilt by destroying your partner's world and trust. How is heck can anyone believe that telling your spouse that you betrayed them, are a liar and cannot be trusted, is going to make him feel better that you were so honest with him. From that point on, the trust he has in you is shattered and it takes many years and lots of fights to regain it. Just wanted to present my view of marriage and monogamy. To be clear, despite our marriage style, my wife and I had about 9 sex partners outside of our marriage over 44 years and more than half were shared by us as a couple. Hardly the evil sinful man I am sometimes portrayed on some websites. My wife and I connect on knowing that we will always be together until the end. I did not need her to be sexually fidelitous. It never mattered who she or I had sex with as sex was not the foundation and measure of trust in our marriage. I can separate sex for fun and sex as making love. What I do is suggest that rather than divorce, when spouses post about a cheating spouse and divorcing, is to consider alternate solutions like an open marriage, swinging together if it the need for more sex or sexual attention that is needed. A safer alternative, and our favorite was threesomes so we could observe each other than let our imaginations run wild about what the other was doing. However, it requires control over jealousy and self confidence. Fear of loss and lack of self confidence are what drives jealousy. We fear losing our spouse to a better person. Men especially fear losing their wives to guys with bigger penises who are sexual supermen like they see in porn. They think all women will chose a big penis unemployed guy over them. Whatever the reason, many are insecure in what they bring to the table. Not me. Not my wife and not our girlfriend or her husband. For 30 years we did not even have so much as an argument. Perhaps because we respected each other's primary relationship and understood that it took precedence over our triad. Thought I would elicit responses here as to their feelings about various forms of non monogamy even if they prefer monogamy. Non monogamy is not better than monogamy. In fact it presents more dangers and requires more effort to make work. I just think that it is an often overlooked answer to divorce sometimes. I rarely tell anyone but I am well educated and have an IQ in the genius range. My wife barely made it through secretarial school, never having taken an academic course in high school while I was in a high school for gifted children. We have no hobbies in common. She is more than a foot shorter than me, non athletic and less than half of my weight. My wife knew that I needed someone to talk to about things other than TV shows and celebrities. Someone more intellectual. I knew that my wife needed someone she could related to on an emotional level who will not question things she accepts as fact simply because she believes them to be true. We found our solution in our girlfriend of 30 years. She holds two Masters Degrees and yet is very emotional. I could make her cry by the things I told her during sex. She desperately needed love that her cold parents never provided her. We were able to provide her that an in turn she gave me an outlet to discuss more weighty issues. She became our live in companion (at least until she got married after living 7 years full time with us), for my wife. They were inseparable and made each other happy. Plus they both learned that each was secretly bisexual and no longer had to hide the sexual desire they had for each other as teenagers. Bringing our girlfriend into our life when we did, saved our marriage. Not only did she provide me with the intellectual stimulation I needed but also she had a dominant personality and loved BDSM as much as I did while my wife did not. It was a perfect storm of marriages. We never considered divorce since we did love each other. Heck, we got engaged 3 weeks after we met. So we thought outside of the box rather than cling to monogamy until we drowned in it. Sorry for the long post but I never revealed our marriage or thoughts on this until a few years ago when we moved away from our girlfriend. It was something we hid from others and never dared speak of to friends or family. I had a career that sometimes put me in public view and our girlfriend was a school teacher at a time when you could legally be fired for moral reasons for being not heterosexual. Heck, I had sex with two gay friends in need even though I was and still am, not attracted to men and back then, I would be labeled as gay if anyone found out. So we all kept our mouths shut until now. My wife is still not that comfortable with me posting about it because she remembers the serious consequences that used to exist. I know that some into cuckolding use chastity so there must be others who are OK with some form of a wholly or partially open marriage of some sort. Even though you are monogamous, you may find nothing wrong with non monogamy that works for others. I find more support in the fetish community because they understand that doing things different does not make them evil sinners or perverts. Although I can own the perver titles since I had been called that since I was 11 years old. Let me know your thoughts about non monogamy. There are no good places to talk about this or even places for spouses of bisexual partners to talk about. I never was bothered by my wife having sex with other women. I thought it was hot and no threat to our marriage. My wife felt the same about me having sex with other women too but after I fell in love with one, she decided to reign me in by threesomes in our own bed. Quite honestly after these past 7 years of monogamy, I am conflicted about non monogamy. I enjoy cuckold porn but would not want to do that again. Same with wife swapping. I think that now I do fear the loss of my wife. I am much older and will need a faithful partner to help me through the illnesses and surgeries that often accompany old age. I know that my wife thinks the same and is not keen on bringing anyone else into our marriage again. To tell the truth, when we look back on our life, we cannot imagine doing what we did. It is as if we were different people back then. Enough of my trip down memory lane and let me have your thoughts. Talking about chastity is kind of boring. How many times can one say they are being denied orgasms and locked up without boring your audience. I rather talk about real life and real chastity, why we engage in our fetishes and how we view marriage and relationships as it pertains to monogamy and the roles we play in our relationships. Are we really submissive slaves 24/7 as some say or do we slip into and out of our sex play roles as the mood strikes us? Let's hear what you have to say assuming you read this far without giving up or falling asleep.
This was a much needed read, Vinny. I'm going through another of my cycles of being fed up with the frantic fantasists posting utter nonsense that would be fine in the fiction section, but for some reason they think it is ok to post it as if it is real. Most of the time I can ignore them, but occasionally I get overwhelmed and start to lose interest in the Mansion. Perhaps this is another reason older members sometimes give up and leave. When you are doing this for real the fantasy comes across as being so false. I am in a long term monogamous marriage and have some thoughts on your most open post I have read to date. Thing is it's almost 1am, so I shall come back to this tomorrow.
I read the whole thing because your title piqued my interest, mainly because my ex-husband and I dabbled in non-monogamy. I have always been bi-sexual, for as far back as I can even remember. I remember playing with the other girls on the playground in elementary school, and having crushes on them, but it would always confuse me because shouldn't I have been having crushes on the dirty little boys on the playground instead? As I grew older, I thought I was abnormal because even though I am still young - 33 years old, only in the last decade or so has homosexuality become the norm and deemed as acceptable. I dated almost solely women in high school, always under the radar and unfortunately it would always end in heartbreak because I was too afraid to show affection at school or in public. I met my ex husband at the end of my senior year in high school, while I was dating my girlfriend - she was seeing men as well and I was okay with that, so when I met my ex, she was just fine with me dating him and in fact, gave him my number without my knowledge. She and I still talk to this day, and I could absolutely kill her for giving him my number back then, but then again if I likely wouldn't have even dated my ex-husband and I may not be as happy as I am now. I always say everything happens for a reason, and that shit-show of a relationship and marriage was meant to happen. I was so happy at first. He was funny, cute, etc etc - at least thorough my teenager, hormone-driven eyes. As the years passed, he finally asked me to marry him 8 years in, and we wed 9 years in. I had this niggling feeling in my mind that it was a bad idea, as he had become complacent in all aspects of life: He would not work, do chores, pay bills, fix the car, etc. He was very vanilla - traditional sex, nothing fun involved. Sex lulled into a distant memory, and I found myself missing women terribly, so before we got married we discussed the possibility of inviting another woman into our bedroom with he goal of forming a triad. @Vinny - I gotta say you are lucky in the aspect that your triad lasted as long as it did. It's almost inherently impossible to make them work. We found many women that were interested, but once they got to know us as a couple, they always gravitated towards me and less towards him. Out of the 9 or so women we were involved with over the span of 5 years, only 3 would let him go all the way with them. The rest paid a majority of their attention to me in bed. He hated this, made him jealous, and would run the women off saying that they only were tolerating him so they could get with me. That may be true, but I know the reason why. Its because he was a self-centered, arrogant prick who only cared about his wants and needs, his desires and nobody else's. The longest a woman stayed with us was for 6 months. When she broke it off with us, I was devastated because not only was I falling for her, but I knew that in her absence the dark cloud that was my marriage would loom over me. And so it did. 3 months later, I had enough. I was tired of the lies, manipulation, and complacency on his part and most of all the boredom. Never feeling wanted, valued or even deserved. I was at my heaviest, I hated myself and wished I would have a random accident that would put me out of my misery. And then I saw the light - he was a handsome, funny, smart and traditional man. He was the one who gave me the courage and strength to leave my husband. Don't get me wrong, it took a lot for me to leave my marriage - I was with him from 17 years old to 30 years old, a significant percentage of my young life. I was afraid of change since I was so used to the way things were. @Thatguyontheinternet pretty much stole me from my ex - he was persistent and would not give up. And I'm glad he didn't! I am the happiest now that I can ever remember being. Thinking back, when I watched my ex have sex and play around with our various female partners, I was not jealous - I thought it was because I loved him SO much that I figured that nothing would destroy us. The only time he and I were intimate near the end of our marriage, was when we had another woman in bed with us. I figured out after I left him that I didn't mind him with other women because it meant I would have some kind of intimacy/connection with the woman since he would never touch me and frequently turn down sex or even things like blowjobs! Now, the thought of another woman touching my man, well at least a woman whom I don't know, makes me very jealous. Thatguy and I have talked about threesomes, but the only way I would do it now is if it was with a trusted friend, and only on a sexual level. I am not against the idea of non-monogamy and polyamory for other couples, but I know that is not right for me as I have everything I have ever needed in a man.
Thanks. I too have quit almost all sex related forums as they seem to be taken over by young guys posting their fantasies online. On one hand I can feel sorry for them because they cannot find the sexual life they want in real life, although it has been my experience that if you work at it, you can. On the other hand, I worry about how real newbies may read some of those fantasies and get the wrong impression about chastity or set themselves up for failure. My statement in my signature block reflects how I lived. I always saw things differently than others and have tried to bend life to my will by sheer hard work and persistence. I tell guys that if you want kinky sex, do not marry someone just because you have been with them for a long time or feel it is the next logical step in the relationship. I tried that once unsucessfully and learned from it. My wife says I am very fussy about what I want and stubbornly go after it. She is right and I see nothing wrong for not wanting to settle be it in a car or a marriage.
Really thought provoking post, both the original and the follow up comments. My wife and I have talked about the idea of her with other men. When I say talked about I mean sometimes in a rational discussion sort of way and sometimes in the heat of passion her describing all the things she wants done to her and me joining in. I have told her that I would like to see her fulfill her fantasy and she tells me it is just talk. De Nile aint just a river in Egypt. I have to admit it plays to my sexual predilections too as I am very submissive to her and enjoy not only her dominance, but also my humiliation. While we have not done most of the stuff any of you have, and not even 10% of what at @Vinny has, we would be labeled freaks by many for our bedroom antics. My wife is very conscious of this. When we talk about what we are enjoying and not enjoying about our new FLR/Chastity relationship, her number one concern is discovery. I have been feeling looser and looser about letting my freak flag fly, but respect her wishes. On some levels I know she is right. It would certainly impact my business if my employees, vendors and customers knew I was walking around in panties with a steel cage on my penis. Not all of them, but a lot of them. On the other hand we were having dinner with friends the other night and the wife after a few drinks was bragging about all the things I do for her now. No one asked, but I could see a few queer looks. I guess I'm kind of rambling off topic myself. Getting back to @Vinny's point I certainly believe that monogamy is not a key to happiness anymore than an open marriage is. We get out of life only what we put in to it. Those that seek an easy solution never find it. Any relationship, no matter how many partners, takes work, patience, love and understanding.
I have had many friends who got divorced, some of my siblings have had more than one marriage. I alone in my family have stayed with the person I married in an obviously happy relationship. I have often been asked how do I do it, especially as for more than twenty five years we regularly had a long distance relationships. A few years together then my Wife would get a job somewhere else and off she would go. She had the career and has always been the majority shareholder, bringing in far more money than I ever did. What I didn't realise throughout that time was we were living in what was essentially an FLR. It was only when I found this place and Tumblr that I heard of the idea of a Female led Relationship or Wife led Marriage. FLR was the first term I heard and that is the one we use. I accepted this distinction immediately but it took Elle a while to also agree. I am reading Georgia Ivey Green's How to set up an FLR to her chapter by chapter (while she has a hot soapy bath, another intimate thing we have started doing since we started using chastity) and this has helped her enormously. This is because almost every chapter includes stuff we are already doing. It's still a fragile distinction, I have to assure Elle that I am happy and not give her reasons to doubt the reality of this. It's lucky I'm not more like @Thatguyontheinternet and more pushy A long time ago I realised I was turned on by the idea of my Wife having sex with other men. It wasn't through inadequacy on my part, it simply didn't make me feel jealous. I even told her that if she ever did find herself in a situation where she wanted to have sex with someone, especially during one of our periods apart, that I would rather she just told me about it and had fun. I wanted her love and intimacy, if she wanted to have sex that was fine. Just as I hadn't heard of FLR I also had no idea about Poly relationships, I'm not sure how I would have felt about that sort of deal. When we started using chastity and developing our FLR I admitted this fantasy to her. Elle told me that her own moral code means she cannot have sex outside of her marriage with me, even with my permission. These feelings are so strong, so ingrained, that if she did have sex with someone else she would have to leave me. She appreciates my honesty with her and understands how I don't see sex as so fundamental a reason to split up as the majority of society. One thing I am interested in is what the distinction is between cuckold sex and just having an open marriage. Is it that the man isn't allowed to have sex outside the relationship but the wife is? Anyway, western religion obviously plays a large role in this programmed expectation that monogamy in a relationship is the only way, but it is also obviously not the entire reason for it. I personally think that jealousy is both deep rooted in many but also toxic. It is genetic. Having sex is primarily for procreation and our lizard brains cannot let go of that idea, that if our partner is having sex outside of our relationship our primary and primal elevated status is no longer secure. I just had a thought. I have heard about poly relationships. Heinlein wrote about them extensively. Time enough for Love, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strange Land to name a few. I suppose I thought they were just fiction, fantasy. Real life is kicking in and interrupting this flow of thought. More later perhaps.
Yes, I did read the entire thread, and It is refreshing to hear such a difficult subject discussed on so many levels. As far as those cardinal sins affiliated in the minds of many with all of this, my Wife and I fell off the turnip truck long ago as we are both divorced and remarried. In fact, we both left our spouses at the same time for each other and have been together now for 15 years. In our first year together, I remember telling her that if she ever wanted to sleep with another guy for the sake of having sex that it was OK as long as she let me in on what was going on. She became upset at the thought and there was never any further discussion on the matter until this past year. As she entered the realm of chastity and FLR and became familiar with the concepts associated with it all, the topic of cuckolding, or at least allowing a third person into our lives once again came up. However, it was not met with the same anger and discomfort as in the past. She said she was not going to cuckold me anytime soon, and said that she couldn't consider a third person for the time being as she doesn't feel comfortable or good about herself. This relates to her body and some extra weight she has been trying to lose for some time. She also implied that if she was in the kind of shape she wants to be in and felt better about herself, than she might more seriously consider the idea. Only after beginning chastity and our FLR did the subject of my bisexuality begin to come to light. I had enjoyed sex since my college days, although mostly with woman, I did on occasion make it with a guy. Of course my ex wife never new this, and my Wife today never new this until fairly recently. Her reaction was cool and she did not act too surprised or react emotionally. However, she does like to tease me about it once in a while. For whatever reasons, my wife has a number of close gay male friends with whom we frequently socialize with and have had many good times.(socially) Now knowing what she knows, she occasionally will tease me by saying she is going to drop me off with a couple of her gay friends for the day, but then follows up with, "oh, that's right, you'd probably like that." Quite honestly, I don't think she is ready to share me with anyone, and she well may never be ready. And if thats the case, than so be it. My primary concern is to keep her happy. And yes, a big part of keeping her happy means keeping me in check. I think this also puts a bit of a new meaning and emphasis on chastity for her and what motivates her to put me in chastity at the times she does. I wish I had more time to speak to this, but I must work now. Best to all. Hope to hear more on this topic. Not fantasy land at all.
The only experience I have was with multiple females. Girlfriend asked a "friend" over. This might seem like the perfect penthouse letter, but reality works differently. We didn't discuss it beforehand. Coming home to two naked girls waiting for u should be a dream come true right? Truth of the matter, I was tired, I really didn't know my role or boundaries, what was allowed and who was into who. It was a mess, I was kinda pissed, she was jealous, the other girl was confused, it would have saved everyone a lot of bullshit if I just would have stayed out of it and watched. So I can imagine a relationship with a third to be just as tricky. I believe the few times we did it, it was meant to fix things, and really had the opposite effect.