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Cruelty and Control

Discussion in 'Female led relationships' started by Breathe, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Breathe
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    Breathe Wife, Owner, Dom/me, and KH of _and_smile

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    This question is for any and everyone.

    Do you feel that cruelty and control are mutually exclusive, mutually inclusive, or entirely independent phenomena?

    I understand the responses to this question will rely heavily on personal definitions of (and desires for) both cruelty and control, among many other terms under these umbrellas... this should make the answers inherently more interesting. :)
     
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  2. Trey Jones
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    Trey Jones Voted Best Male Dom on ChastityMansion

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    It can be any of the three. The only answer is in the mind of the sub or person who is being controlled and receiving the cruelty.

    For example, you may think that you are being cruel and extreme but the sub may love every second of it. They may not think you were cruel at all. Like you said, it will vary from person to person and what they consider cruel.

    Not only does everyone's personal definition of cruel vary, but it's a sliding scale or spectrum as well. Most subs enjoy a certain level of "cruelty" and you could even argue that the basic principle behind chastity and controlling someone else's ability to orgasm or not...is "cruel" in a way. A very fun way. ;)
     
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  3. Joroincharge
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    Joroincharge Lock em up - 24/7/365!!

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    Thoughtful post. I'd say they are independent of each other more or less. Certainly not mutually exclusive nor inclusive. Control can certainly exist without cruelty. Cruelty without control possible but barely, and unlikely to happen often.
     
  4. Joan.t
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    Joan.t Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion they are entwined, not mutually exclusive nor independent phenomena.
    Each couple has it own dynamics, they are always in a very delicate balance, like on old fashioned cheek to cheek dance.
    Control needs, depending on this balance of wills, of the predisposition of the wearer to accept some cruelty, on the other side, cruelty does not always mean "cruelty", but in many cases only the acceptance of being under domination and accepting it with apprehension but deriving also satisfaction.
     
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  5. Joroincharge
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    Joroincharge Lock em up - 24/7/365!!

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    Well put IMO
     
  6. Mandynjack
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    Mandynjack Well-Known Member

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    For me, control is the constant and cruelty is the variable. In this lifestyle there are many variables but only one constant.
     
  7. Joan.t
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    Joan.t Well-Known Member

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    Control always forgot to comment on that.
    After all, for the FLR work we must exert the control.:)
     
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  8. Nicoftime
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    Nicoftime The suspense is terrible...I hope it lasts

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    For me, my definition of cruelty is the key. My definition is apathy, removal of intimacy, and withdrawal...with all of them the control you speak of would disappear. I would have no reason to follow.

    The soft definition of cruel, punishments, time denied, teasing, etc...those are part of our thing and I don’t find them cruel. The other stuff I find is more strict and not cruel. Not allowing porn, viewing her naked, used as a foot stool, to me those are strict. I don’t really get into those, it is more on the slavery side than I care for. I like serving because I want to, not because I have to.
     
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  9. thefemdecided
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    thefemdecided Well-Known Member

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    Well, that gave us something to talk about over the breakfast table! Our view is that it all depends on the starting point.

    If you start with control there is no direct correlation with cruelty. We control Ian, certainly sexually, but we aren’t cruel. We all enjoy our relationship, with its mix of controls and freedoms. We live, we laugh, we have fun, we can all express opinions. In effect our relationship is symbiotic, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

    Starting with cruelty, especially if it’s non consensual, is another matter. Women in particular (though not exclusively) who are treated cruelly usually are subjected to that by a controlling partner and can’t escape for whatever reason. Mental cruelty is worse as it’s more difficult to prove without bruises.

    Consensual cruelty is maybe a contradiction in terms. If someone wants it is it cruel?

    Disclaimer: No one in this house was harmed during the making of this post!

    Jane & Janet
    XX
     
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  10. rebeccacd404
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    rebeccacd404 2018 is going to be a year of chastity and denial!

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    Interesting question, I have never thought my Mistress as being cruel when she is being controlling I like to be controlled. This lifestyle has to work both ways, be something to both parties......I don't know if I should say.....because I know my Mistress looks at this site, but a little cruelty or hard dominance can be good for maintaining control. There must always be consequences if a Mistress is for what ever reason disappointed with her property. It would be difficult to accept cruelty for the sake of it, unless you are in to that! yesterday for example my Mistress was maybe a little cruel.....she made me get hard, then relax, then get hard, then relax....then re cage....but its all part of the programming.....but at the time it did feel cruel...I think the best cruelty is in the mind.....not the body! But then whats cruel to me is possibly pleasure to her.....Yin and Yan....you need both!
     
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  11. filltee
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    filltee Junior Member

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    As usual Joro summed it up very well.



    Is cruelty even necessary? Once again it rather depends on the dynamic of your relationship I would think.
     
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  12. JiL
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    JiL servitude4u

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    Control and cruelty may be closely connected for some and hardly connected at all for others. In a FLR, I believe that cruelty is more of a psychological perception which can be a direct result of handing over the control. Those into the S & M stuff look forward to some level of cruelty perhaps. In my relationship, my Miss looks to take control in a more subtle tone and shows little need or desire to be cruel in Her pursuit to control anything. I sometimes suggest she take a bit more control, even if this results in perceived cruelty. This reminds me of the question as to what is the difference between humility and humiliation. While the words are so close in spelling and pronunciation, few truly seem to acknowledge or know the difference between being humiliated and dealing with something via humility and being humbled. Is it all the same ? In my opinion, cruelty is more of a direct result for those can not accept the control they have given up.
     
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  13. jemima
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    jemima maid for my Mistress

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    my Mistress is not cruel . i am paddled sometimes but its only if i do something silly and that makes me try and not do silly things. i think that cruel folks are one that do things to other folks that dont want it done to them and has to have it cos they cant do anthing to stop it and thats cruel i think.
     
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  14. Breathe
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    Breathe Wife, Owner, Dom/me, and KH of _and_smile

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    Interesting responses so far, everyone. I feel most of them align with what I had in mind for My answer as well. Personally, I lean towards 'independent' (thoughts put sweetly more succinctly by @Joroincharge compared to what follows here).

    When a strong interaction among factors is present, one cannot ascertain the true impact of each individual part. When they don't interact significantly, then you can start to tease apart the true magnitude of each variable. Independent effects can be quite powerful on their own... yet catalysts are fascinating.

    I posed this question because the 'one true way' mentality, for approaching anything in life, has never made sense to Me... particularly in D/s or other power exchange relationships. While I'm still hoping to hear an 'opposing' side's thoughts, I'd like to present just one of many alternatives in pursuing this lifestyle. I'm glad to know it's not alien here, and interested to know if others share My approach.

    It seems overwhelmingly common to interlace guilt, shame, dissonance, apprehension, and cruelty with either side of the D/s slash (usually one moreso than the other). During My time living the kink life, I've heard countless times that without those elements... 'breaking' a sub or being truly Dominant isn't possible.

    Frankly, I think that's a crock of shit.

    As such, I think it's positive for people to discuss alternative angles of control... ones that warm the body and mind, instead of hatefully banishing both to a cold, isolated corner.

    I feel I should briefly mention... to anyone, sub or otherwise, who has tricked themselves into accepting true mistreatment - whether welcomed at the time or not - know this: there are other (better) ways to get what you need in life, love, and sex. This is not kink-shaming or judgement, only fact.

    Guilting yourself into settling for most of what you want, no matter the pain and anguish it causes in other ways, can feel tolerable and even comfortable for a while... but I assure you, it's only harmful in the long run. There are plenty of reasons why many kinks are associated with negativity, as @Mistress MIN and I were discussing last night.

    Nevertheless... different strokes, y'know. :)
     
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  15. Achedlock17
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    Achedlock17 Member

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    It depends in my view on whether the cruelty is “inside the scene” or if there is only an inside to the scene, with a horizon, “over there”. In the latter case the risk is of a Truman-show like scenario where the cruelty isn’t registered but the sub or subject to reflective challenge. It is coercive control, in other words, which is cruel a priori, irrespective of the particular cruelties perpetrated.
    If it is the former, then outside the scene the terms can be negotiated. Once negotiated any cruelty within those terms is OK, subject to the sub stepping outside the scene if they change their minds. Just MHO of course.
     
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  16. Breathe
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    Breathe Wife, Owner, Dom/me, and KH of _and_smile

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    For the sake of clarity in this response, I'll provide the most commonly accepted definitions of 'cruelty', which often come to mind when I think of the term: "callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering"; and/or "behavior that causes physical or mental harm to another, especially a spouse, whether intentionally or not".

    I find that pursuing actions based on these definitions of cruelty would require... a lot of energy and forethought. It also doesn't give Me pleasure to actively harm and/or cause true suffering to anyone else, mentally or physically, submissive/male/otherwise. If you're deeply into all forms of sadism (which is fine! YKINMKATO) and you relish in this type of thing, I'm sure "cruelty" comes rather naturally. That's just not My style, and seems like a waste of time.

    (Sidenote: I firmly believe you can enjoy certain types of pain without being labeled as a 'stereotypical' sadist/masochist, too - I think it's that whole 'and suffering' thing that gives the unhealthy designation... but that's another post!)

    If I had to label Myself in our D/s relationship, I'd say I'm a sensual Dominant. I enjoy deep intimacy, warm affection, and receiving unwavering submission... sharing a transparent human connection with My partner/husband/pet through honest exposure and eliminated inhibitions. I thoroughly enjoy embracing and enjoying his body, caged or not. Being emotionally and physically close before and after our play is quite common, and many times we stay that way in the interim. Cruelty would stop that from happening on both sides at an instant. He understands there are (and have been) repercussions in other areas of our life together for disrespecting trust, but that's because our friendship, love, and mutual respect comes before our D/s play, any day.

    Expending energy on imparting harm 'in exchange' for control doesn't seem like a particularly productive endeavor... more like a habit that would quickly reach the point of diminishing returns. Conversely, there are unlimited benefits from exploring the positives. As such, focusing on negative sexual practices has never been gratifying for (or made sense to) Me. Striving to be cruel to someone I love seems like a lot of counter-intuitive work that would only belabor our relationship.

    However, doling out brutal honesty to someone, loved or not, that deserves or needs to hear it? I'll gladly do that in a heartbeat, with no apprehension towards 'hurt feelings'. :D If that makes Me 'cruel'... so be it. The fluidity of terminology (and life itself) is not lost on Me...

    Hateful punishments or behaviors, sexual or not, would be ineffective for either of us, since that'd require Me to: a) care about doing it in the first place; and b) lift a finger, subsequently wasting time and energy, to do so. Rather, I feel any punishments he's received have been just; aligning more with a karmic consequence that motivates real change rather than a laborious act I'm administering. Naturally striking an ever-renewing balance with behavior as you mentioned, @Joan.t!

    I do not have to force My rules to enact control. I do not have to threaten extremes or micromanage him. He knows his place, and he's finding deeper levels as we go. Consent and discussion are imperative for successful communication, as @thefemdecided and @Achedlock17 wisely mentioned. I believe you can simultaneously want to use and enjoy the cock you lock while retaining Dominance... and you can also be obedient and submissive while keeping your spine and self-respect intact.

    I agree; apathy ≠ gratification... well said, @Nicoftime. We are all human and there's not much point in denying that, regardless of individual relationship dynamics.

    Maybe we've misused the terms, maybe the blended definitions we create as a society mask the original linguistic intentions and cause misunderstanding... because My pet has called Me 'cruel', many times before. It's an entirely different flavor than what I've mentioned above, much like you described @Trey Jones. ;)

    Also, @JiL has a great point about humility vs. humiliation, but I won't digress further on that here as this post is already quite lengthy. Another thread, perhaps? :)

    ---​

    My 'TL;DR' point is: I'm convinced that tenderness can coexist with D/s and chastity / humiliation / degradation / objectification / pain / gender / primal / etc play... in My opinion, there's no need to dilute the unforeseen possibilities of control with shame, negativity, or cruelty - which usually only seem to suck energy out of the air, anyway.
     
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  17. Joroincharge
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    Joroincharge Lock em up - 24/7/365!!

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    Thanks. No, cruelty is not necessary at all. And it does indeed depend on the relationship dynamic. Spot on, filtee!
     
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  18. Mandynjack
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    Mandynjack Well-Known Member

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    Hi hun. I needed a bit more time to get my head around your great post. So, my angle is this; they are mutually inclusive! Caging jack has been a bundle of fun from the get go, mostly because he is actually a really good lover as well as super kinky. If he enters me, he will be wearing a strap on with his cock caged. I will often gag him and full hood him so he sees nothing. I know this deprivation is excruciating for him, he loves the visuals and the sensors. Am I being controlling and cruel? You bet! I know it's just one scenario, but I think it could demonstrate that the 2 can go hand in glove. xx
     
  19. Joan.t
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    Joan.t Well-Known Member

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    Great, great post.
    Have to read it many times to grab the full potential of your words.
    Two quotes come to my mind:
    Intimacy on the love play is essential, can't be more fulfilling in joy than this.

    Very well said, never heard it so well resumed. Really good appraisal of how love must be conducted to be successful on the long run.
     
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  20. Dufty
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    Dufty Well-Known Member

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    That's a great way to describe the situation! By the way live how you gag and hood Jack! I am visually stimulated too so I know how fantastically frustrating that is!
     
  21. Dufty
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    Dufty Well-Known Member

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    This is an excellent discussion and I wish I was not at work so could write more!

    Big respect to the keyholders who always work so hard to be in control of when to allow a release, how much to tease and punish etc.

    The cruelty element when applied correctly can make the experience so special and intense!

    Imagine my horror and delight when I was edged after six months and just as i thought I was going to get a ruined orgasm she gave me a playful kiss and said she had decided I could wait a little longer!
     
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  22. Nicoftime
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    Nicoftime The suspense is terrible...I hope it lasts

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    Its funny how different we all are yet still interested in the same thing. You see if I was hooded, gagged, and laying down while she used the dildo on top of me...well that wouldn't get me hot, it would get me bored. I would ask why I was even there. If im not getting any of the visual, taste, or feel of her to add to my frustration, my presence is doing nothing for either of us. I wouldn't consider that sexual fun cruelty, I would consider it cruel time management. I could have been doing something productive besides being deaf blind and immobile.

    Others really get off on the sensory deprivation so I know its real, seen enough plastic covered people on videos to know some must like it. One mans lovely torture is another mans disinterest. Weird how we are all wired so different.
     
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  23. Mandynjack
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    Mandynjack Well-Known Member

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    Well yeah hun and thank goodness we're all different. Otherwise the whole world would be walking around in pink shoes. And this occurred to me; you need to see, where others need to imagine. I'm not alluding to one is better than the other, just we all have different ways of engaging. And sensory deprivation, not too dissimilar to Marmite!
     
  24. Nicoftime
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    Nicoftime The suspense is terrible...I hope it lasts

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    Thanks for agreeing with me about our differences being a good thing sweety. I am an acquired taste like Marmite or Grain Belt beer.
     
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  25. Breathe
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    Breathe Wife, Owner, Dom/me, and KH of _and_smile

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    I suppose the real question could be... is it actually cruel if he truly welcomes and enjoys it? Sensory deprivation strengthens the other senses, so isn't that partially a gift? I guess we could spin this topic forever, truly. :D

    Hmm. Maybe I should have asked more questions about consent and cruelty, since to Me... cruelty is something heinous that would keep the receiver up at night with self-doubt.

    I couldn't agree more. Joyful play, indeed!

    That sounds like a delightful play session... and vaguely familiar. ;)

    I would agree. It goes back to the apathetic mentality, in My mind. If either side was participating in something they didn't care for, how would it be effective for either? Some wires definitely go to different destinations, but it's interesting how they intersect.

    I thought that was a great way of saying this. It also furthers My point in the first response to you here. If he needs to imagine, it sounds like he needs the deprivation... the fulfillment of which must elicit some form of joy or reward.

    ---​

    Great discussion so far, all. :)
     
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