The Dignity of Women

Discussion in 'Female led relationships' started by littleguy3, Sep 10, 2022.

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  1. littleguy3
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    #1 littleguy3, Sep 10, 2022
    My friend @Jay Sub raised gender inequality as an issue in Christianity in another thread that I'm active on. Since it was a bit off topic, I decided to start this thread to discuss the topic. I originally was going to entitle the thread "Christianity & Gender Equality" but decided I wanted it to be broader and more positive.

    I've spent the summer studying biblical passages that relate to male / female relationships, marriage, and sexuality. I've been surprised at how much material there is to consider. I recently was meditating on the passage of scripture in Genesis that deals with the creation of Eve. After looking at it thoroughly, I opened a bible commentary written in the late 1900's by Warren Wiersbe. He had the following to say about the dignity of a woman and quotes another commentator from the 1800's. Their commentary is too good not to share with others and reflects my views very well. The scripture references are from Genesis chapter 1 except where otherwise noted.

    "The woman was by no means a “lesser creature.” The same God who made Adam also made Eve and created her in His own image (v. 27). Both Adam and Eve exercised dominion over creation (v. 29). Adam was made from the dust, but Eve was made from Adam’s side, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (2:23).The plain fact is that Adam needed Eve. Not a single animal God had created could do for Adam what Eve could do. She was a helper “suitable for him.” Though Eve was made to be a “suitable, face-to-face helper” for Adam, she wasn’t made to be a slave. The noted Bible commentator Matthew Henry wrote: “She was not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved.” Paul wrote that “the woman is the glory of man” (1 Cor. 11:7), for if man is the head (1 Cor.11:1–16; Eph. 5:22–33), then woman is the crown that honors the head."​

    When I read that last statement about "the crown", it made me think of the many men here on this site who refer to their mate as their "Queen" or "Princess".

    I believe this quotation captures the essence of the biblical instruction on this topic. As with anything, some may have distorted it over time for their own selfish desires. The authors of these two commentaries crafted these summaries well before the 21st century during times that were not as forward thinking about the topic of gender equality.

    I shared this with my wife over dinner one evening and her heart was moved.... she loved it.
     
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  2. captivatedbyher
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    captivatedbyher romantic want to be

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    #2 captivatedbyher, Sep 10, 2022
    Scripture has to be twisted to even suggest that women are of lesser value to men. Just a few thoughts:
    : God formed Adam but fashioned Eve
    :In the OT God sent men to war not the women
    :God gave us male circumcision, (in part for the health and well being of the women)
    :Jesus came as a man. It is unfitting for a woman to die as Jesus did
    :God calls men to lead the church, I suspect because of the kill rate (much of history and the world today is very hostile towards the church)

    Is male chastity a kink? Maybe. But it is very respectful of women!
     
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    #3 Shepherdsflock, Sep 10, 2022
    I happen to be a Christian and take studying the Bible pretty seriously. However, I want to say that there are passages in the Bible to support almost any viewpoint you could want to support regarding gender and sexuality. You could be a totally bigoted, sexist asshole and find Bible verses that you could use to back it up.

    I agree with the first post's claims that women are equal to men, but the idea of equality in the 19th century was not the same as our current idea of equality. I've read a lot of commentaries from that era. Most of the theologians of the time were all about saying they women were equal..."in Christ". That is to say, women were viewed to have an equal share in the eternal life offered by Jesus. But as far as earthly matters of mortal existence were concerned, women were to be subjects of men and yield themselves to them.

    So, just bear in mind that the words and phrases used by 19th and early 20th century theologians regarding gender and sexuality were written by people who viewed the world through a very different lens than we do today.
     
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    #4 true42, Sep 11, 2022
    So true.

    I think the world would be a much better place if we all agreed to start at the level of "don't be an asshole". We can then argue and discuss (from that starting point) how much farther to go in terms of respecting women, etc.
     
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  5. Jay Sub
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    #5 Jay Sub, Sep 11, 2022
    Christians have come a long way with equality in the last few decades, the church too, far more so than other Abrahimic faiths, but it is not there yet. Not by a long shot. Not in most countries. We are spoiled in the west. We just need to persuade the rest of the world how women are better than us sorry lot. Lol.

    @captivatedbyher I feel your arguments are not logical or true. Surely you are mixing Judaism and Christianity with the circumcision comment and belief in Jesus. Though I'm happy to be corrected
     
  6. captivatedbyher
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    captivatedbyher romantic want to be

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    #6 captivatedbyher, Sep 11, 2022
    That's great! You can think what you want! I'm saying the traditional understanding of it is correct while seeing an additional message. God could have chosen anything He wanted, ear clipping, nose piercing, lip dilation, but instead He chose a usually hidden (at least mine is) part, why? Double purpose?
    Even if you don't agree, the reality is uncut males in pre modern times caused more vaginal infections than cut males.
     
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  7. billzboats
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    billzboats 63rd birthday

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    #7 billzboats, Sep 13, 2022
    My family and I have been through some really hard times in the past. I had basically given up I was sent an angel to save my son from the worst addiction imaginable. Renewed my faith but I believe that gender has nothing to do with it. The Golden Rule!
     
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  8. AshleyWilsonBlack
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    #8 AshleyWilsonBlack, Sep 21, 2022
    Why do Christian men spend so much time anguishing over what value to place on women?
     
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    #9 Shepherdsflock, Sep 21, 2022
    Probably because they spend so much time writing and passing legislations to strip women of rights. Public relations damage control. And maybe just a touch of guilty conscience making its way to the surface.
     
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    #10 SubSnuggler, Sep 21, 2022
    Meh, I'm Christian and am decidedly libertarian/conservative and I believe in Female Superiority. Not everyone fits in a box.
     
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  11. littleguy3
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    #11 littleguy3, Sep 21, 2022
    That was unkind of you. You don't know me well enough to make that kind of judgment about me.
     
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  12. Jay Sub
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    #12 Jay Sub, Sep 21, 2022
    Was that aimed specifically at you? I don't think so. Only in a collective responsibility sense, and we all, Christian and non-christian alike have a small part to play in redressing the balance of power, even when we have little. So don't be offended, be proud that you are one of the ones on the side good as we, the human race, move into more progressive times. Be wary of those who speak against the progression of equality.
     
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    #13 Shepherdsflock, Sep 21, 2022
    It wasn't directed specifically at you. You also don't know me well enough to make a call about my motivation for saying what I said.
     
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    #14 Lazlo Toth, Sep 21, 2022
    I humbly recommend the reading of Proverbs 31. Nearly impossible to take out of context. Not related to old vs New Testament. Just lists the values a good woman can bring.

    If you can read Proverbs 31 and still say the Bible doesn’t value women....whew.

    Also, the book of Esther tells of how a woman saved ALL of Israel. Hardly “lesser”

    The book of Ruth shows how a woman’s love can sustain and overcome the most horrible obstacles.

    No cherry picking. If you somehow miss the fact that women are vital in the Bible you had better read it again.

    Arguably the WORLD’S longest running holiday (2700 years or so) is in honor of a woman. Purim
     
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  15. Jay Sub
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    #15 Jay Sub, Sep 21, 2022
    I accept what you say in this instance from a theist stance. Where then do you or anyone else think the historical discrimination of women stems from?
     
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    #16 Lazlo Toth, Sep 21, 2022
    Great question Jay.

    My own guess it’s from man’s (the male) own stupidity. They falsely used their physical strength to oppress.

    In my opinion, and apparently several authors in the Bible too, to fail to fully embrace the amazingly complementary strengths of the female (and Vice versa) is just dumb.

    And chastity is no exception. Why NOT utilize the complementary strengths of a woman to help harness and channel the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a male?

    Rhetorical question: does any chaste male on this site not feel that a woman’s help has made them a better man?
     
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    #17 AshleyWilsonBlack, Sep 21, 2022
    I don't think anyone seriously argues against using complementary strengths and weaknesses in a relationship. The issue is when one gender gets to decide what all of those strengths and weaknesses are for every person and every relationship. Or in this case when when a handful of long dead men get to decide what all those strengths and weaknesses are for every person and every relationship.

    Proverbs 31 is a list of rules for how every woman should behave. Change the title and a few pronouns and it would be indistinguishable from a kinky slave contract. If you think it some how proves how the Bible values women, then I have to ask: Why is it gender specific? Which of the verse shouldn't also apply to men?
     
  18. littleguy3
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    #18 littleguy3, Sep 21, 2022
    It felt directed at me since I was the one who started this thread. It also seems to imply that all Christian man are probably like that. It is unkind to suggest bad about people who are trying to set things right and influence those who may be in need of encouragement to correct their thinking and behavior. Comments like that only set things back instead of helping all of us to move forward.
     
  19. Jay Sub
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    #19 Jay Sub, Sep 21, 2022
    Denying history is not the way to move forward. You have to acknowledge the past, learn from it then move forward. Unfortunately we are not in the past. I recognize the progression of some, but to ignore the fact that we are not there yet is not right. No one is implying that all Christian men are like that, especially on CM. I think we can all agree we are here because we share a reverence of women. You are not being attacked. Stop debating the person and debate their comment. It happens to be pretty spot on, not the whole of everything, but part of the truth of it.
     
  20. SubSnuggler
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    #20 SubSnuggler, Sep 21, 2022
    Meh, we spend too much energy trying to assign blame and criticize.

    Honor your better half in all ways, and let your actions be an example to the community. It can be little things, like always opening doors, carrying bags, etc. In bigger better ways, let your children and relatives see how happy you can be under the leadership of your Wife within marriage. It starts with all of us by being examples and agents of change.
     
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  21. captivatedbyher
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    captivatedbyher romantic want to be

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    #21 captivatedbyher, Sep 21, 2022
    Are you not a transgender? If I had made a similar comment about your community ohhhh my! I bet I would be kicked off this site!
    I like you, I except you. I'm sure your comment comes from a place of hurt and it felt good to bash people of my faith. That's ok, Jesus forgives you! .
    In regards to your statement that Christians have done things to "strip women of rights", I invite you to name a few and be specific.

    Please refresh my memory, didn't you grow up in a Christian home?
     
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  22. captivatedbyher
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    captivatedbyher romantic want to be

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    #22 captivatedbyher, Sep 21, 2022
    we know your motivations, but feel free to prove us wrong
     
  23. Shepherdsflock
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    #23 Shepherdsflock, Sep 21, 2022
    You don't know that I am a rather outspoken Christian. I am not afraid to call out my own kind for the misdeeds we have been guilty of. The current course of western Christianity is nothing short of how Laodicea us characterized by Jesus in Revelation 3.

    And having said that, I will be silent in this conversation.
     
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  24. Jay Sub
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    Jay Sub Married with Cage

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    #24 Jay Sub, Sep 22, 2022
    Shame on you for this nasty little petty outburst on one of your fellow Christians.
     
  25. billzboats
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    billzboats 63rd birthday

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    #25 billzboats, Sep 22, 2022
    How did we get here? I am on this forum for support and my wife’s and my relationship has grown into a beautiful thing because of your understanding and love. I do not care about your politics or whether men or women are dominant. My wife in my opinion (not hers) is my saving grace. This is not God’s opinion or the bible’s teaching. She has saved my life!
     
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