My best lesson on racism

Discussion in 'Off topic discussions' started by L-u-c-y, Jun 12, 2020.

  1. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    Achieving the same score on a test, while having a disadvantaged background means you are achieving whilst facing additional challenges.

    So yes. They would be a more flexible worker capable of dealing with additional stresses.

    Do you disagree with that statement?
     
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  2. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    I'm still waiting for your first answer...
     
  3. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    I've told you. Achieving the same result while dealing with additional stresses makes you a better worker then the person who got the same result as you in a positive environment.

    If you agree with that, then you start getting into deeper aspects of how to measure it and quantify it. If you don't then it stops here and doesn't get any deeper till this premise is resolved.
     
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  4. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    And is that your opinion, or can you cite hard facts that prove this assertion? Maybe find a study that checked test results, backgrounds, dropout rates, final class rankings etc. and supports your position? I'm not asking for an opinion piece or an ideological treatise. I'm talking statistics.

    The last time I glanced in the direction of those matters, African American university freshmen had lower IQ average than the overall average was, and consequently worse performance. And the estimated probable cause was them often getting accepted with lower test scores. So even after years of trying to finetune the point values for "hard life", the existing affirmative actions you're rooting for were still failing to correctly evaluate applicants *and* at the same time increasing dropout rates and student debt amongst African Americans.
     
  5. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    I'll add one kind of important note regarding test design.

    Do you realize what is the purpose of a test like the ones we're talking about? To gauge future performance of an applicant. The better the test, the more dependable the results are. *Anything* that can improve the performance of the test gets included (if it is legal etc.), because it makes the test better. So if the factors you propose matter did increase the predictive capabilities of a test, test designers would be happy to include them.

    However... Adding/subtracting arbitrary amounts of extra points based on factors that *don't* improve the test's predictive abilities is at best unjust (if the factors are neutral in regards to future results, but biased towards certain groups) and most likely damaging to everyone (weaker applicants who got accepted drop out more often, average quality of applicants goes down).
     
  6. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    You mentioned IQ there.

    Care to explain why you think their IQ is lower?
     
  7. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    This is NOT about what I *think*, and you're either failing at basic understanding of how science works, or trying to insinuate I'm the racist here. This is what *independent research* I had nothing to do with found out.

    That is what *science* does - it tries to get closer to the truth about reality, no matter what we think that reality should be. You do the research, and if you don't like the resuts you either find an error in your methodology if there's one, or accept that reality is not what you wanted it to be.

    What you do with the knowledge you've gained is another matter, but at least you're basing your policies on best knowledge available, not on what you *wish* reality to be like.
     
  8. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    lmfao, such a pussy.

    You state that black people at university have lower IQ's and yet you don't want to even attempt to explain why you've come to such a conclusion or why it is?

    Take the mask off mate.
     
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  9. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    Except it wasn't *me* coming to a *conclusion*, it was *researchers* discovering *facts*.

    Like I said, either you don't understand how science works, or you're making pathetic attempts to attack my character.
     
  10. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    Must be hot under that pointy white hat mate
     
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  11. sandman9355
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    Look, this is like me saying "ice floats on water" and you asking me how I've reached that conclusion. It is not a conclusion. It is an observable fact. Accusing me of being ice-supremacist liquid-phobe won't change observable facts.

    Suppose a university sets a cutoff score of 115, but adds five points to everyone considered black. What that leads to is the real cutoff for black applicants being 110, and because no other racial group contains freshmen who didn't make it past 115, the blacks are the only ones with those weaker links in a metaphorical chain. Their average is lower because they're the only group containing people whose score was below that 115 limit.

    And the blacks who got accepted despite their real score being low, say 111, *suffer the most*, because they're the ones most likely to drop out while saddled with a student debt. Sure, many will make it. But that doesn't outweigh the general trend, and good statistics show us a condensed view of the whole picture, not some charry-picked individual examples.
     
  12. BunnyAthalus
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    BunnyAthalus Long term member

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    Literally in none of the examples i've ever given you have i ever inflated a test score, so nice strawman my dude.

    Why won't you make it clear why you believe that blacks have lower IQ's. You're prepared to cite bullshit after bullshit, but not prepared to cite your conclusions? Stop being a coward.

    Why in your opinion do black people have lower IQ's.
     
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  13. sandman9355
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    sandman9355 Junior Member

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    So how *is* your concept of race-based affirmative action for university admission supposed to work? Even if you only limit it to "if test scores are the same, those with worse backgrounds win", you *will* create different cutoffs.

    I've never accused *you* of inflating a test score, so who's creating strawmen here again? The reason I talked about a *system* doing that is because surprise, it's a principle that often gets applied in reality, even if technical details vary from place to place. You don't like it, complain to the universities who do it.

    Likewise, I've never claimed black people in general have lower IQs. I said I remember a study showing the average IQ of black university freshmen was lower than the overall freshmen average, and one likely culprit was biased admissions process. Are you so blinded by your need to see something to hate that you suck at reading comprehension? Or are you back to trying to find more ways to insinuate I'm a racist?
     
  14. Nicoftime
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    Nicoftime The suspense is terrible...I hope it lasts

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    Ok, yep, I think whatever point that was trying to be made is perfectly obvious.

    I can not think of a single scenario where I would want to hear your opinion on any subject...blocked. This will certainly remove most of the Jerry springer from my cm experience, I will however endeavor to persevere.
     
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